All A Guy Ever Wants Is Sex, According to Charedim
Charedim try to "dance at all parties" by making sex completely taboo, yet fearing it looms around every corner.This past week's Chinuch Roundtable in the Yated made me kind of upset.
The question came from a parent who has two teenaged daughters and an 8-year-old son. They live near a frum drug rehab center. The residents there are in their 20s, have gone off the derech, many come from rabbinical households or yichus, and are"hungry for a home. "
She asks whether she should worry about the influence that these kids will have on her children.
"I would like to know your feelings regarding exposing children to these types of boys and their sometimes off-color comments." In other words, do the benefits of such a mitzvah outweigh the risks?
In my opinion, she answered her own question when she ended her letter with the following, in parenthesis for some odd reason, "In the last few years, some of these boys have become Shomer Shabbos. One went to Eretz Yisrael and one even married a frum girl."
The rabbis on the panel were faced with a tough question. Many of them wrote that they asked their own rabbonim to get their thoughts on the matter.
What surprised me was the number of rabbis who chose to focus on the males in their 20s in the presence of teenaged girls. It's not about the drugs. It's not about the off-color comments. It's not about the 8-year-old getting funny ideas in his head. No. It's about the chance that one of these guys would hit on the teenagers.
Notice that the writer didn't mention anything of that nature that happening over the past few years. I think these guys know that if they were to do anything inappropriate, they wouldn't be allowed back there. Thus, had they attempted to hit on the daughters, the writer would no longer have this question.
Clearly, these young men value these meals, and are grateful to be invited to a warm, welcoming frum home, and they are willing do what it takes to maintain a good rapport with this family.
I have a lot of respect for this family for giving these guys something that they perhaps lacked throughout their teen years. A warm, welcoming home. We don't know for sure, but I'd venture to say that this family had a share in the other young men's successes.
The rabbis go so far as to say even if these guys were bachurim in a yeshiva, they don't belong in a home with teenaged daughters.
This attitude only allows me to conclude one thing. These rabbonim seem to think that every man is a horny animal and every woman is a sex object.
I have a brother 3 1/2 years my senior. Does that mean he should never have any friends over? Do these rabbis think that we'll be playing footsie under the table since he's a guy and I'm a girl?! Is every guy that horny?
A healthy ta'avas nashim is necessary for the functioning of any male in society.
In other words, yes, men want to have sex. That is how Hashem created them.
Nonetheless, this doesn't mean that every guy is a sack of raging hormones, and every girl is a sex object. There is more to both sexes than, well, sex.
One rav wrote, "Even if these bochurim were the best bochurim in Lakewood, they should never be invited to a home that has older daughters." (If "older" is 19+ and they are seeking a learning guy -- well, G-d forbid a shidduch come out of this and prevent the two of them from experiencing the sometimes painful shidduch system! That would be just tragic, wouldn't it -- Sorry, I digressed. Couldn't help it.)
Clearly, the other very important issue at hand, which I believe is what the letter-writer was really asking, is whether these guys who "fell into the wrong crowd" and throw in an off-color comment once in a while, put the children at risk. That is for another day, perhaps.
posted by Michelle @ 8:20 AM
26 Comments:
Great post, you put it down the way it should be said.
It's kinda the reason why any minimal socializing is not allowed in real frum communities.
Since he's a "guy", omg, did I just say the guy.
It's kind of what Orlofsky said in his famous "platonic relationships" speech.
Goes back to the idea that chareidim have no confidence in people's abilities to (a) control themselves; and (b) think for themselves. That's why they're so against college because they're afraid that a professor will say something questionable and that will influence the kid to go off the derech. If you've instilled such emunah in these guys, how is it that they can't withstand a comment here and there?
With these girls, same thing. So a guy talks to you. So you talk back and have a conversation, and it ends there. But no. They have no control, so it'll automatically lead to something bad. So much for being an eesha tzenuah.
So that's what this is about. We're just too weak to withstand any nisayon.
It's not the sexual act itself that's the problem per-se, looking at or talking to the opposite sex are "sins" in their own right.
You mean that's not all guys want? what else is there?
The irony, as you may have mentioned before, is that if anything, the rabbonim, by focusing and talking so much to boys about how girls are sex objects to beware of, may be causing boys to become the horny teenagers they then warn the girls all boys are! If everyone quit focusing on sex so much, maybe these boys could begin to see girls as, you know, *people* too.
NotaGeek - thanks.
I think minimal socializing would be optimal. Too much is not good either, since, yes, there is sexual temptation. I'm not saying we're saints. But the way these rabbis talk...
Big Bro- Exactly. I plan to put this in a post someday BL"N, but when I told my HS principals that I was going to attend Brooklyn College, they were very alarmed, and warned me to "make sure you are ALWAYS seated surrounded by frum girls." HAHA!!!!!
Benjamin E - Right. Or they work so hard to rid themselves of ta'avas nashim, thinking that it's something evil and wrong, and end up in trouble.
Kudos on an interesting post. I love the "G-d forbid a shidduch come out of this and prevent the two of them from experiencing the sometimes painful shidduch system" - too true! Chas v'shalom people should get married because they want to instead of because everyone told them they should.
Arggg this just happened to my mother, seriously. A woman at shul called her over and apologized for not inviting her over to their house even though they wanted to, because of my two teenage brothers, they didn't want them to interact with their teenage daughter. I was all like, Um hi, does your daughter go to shul? Because she can hook up with boys there too. Maybe you should just lock her up. At the very least, they could have just placed them at opposite sides of the table, so they wouldn't have a chance to talk really. Ug.
I read the responses (thanks, Mom) and I didn't see that as being the focus at all. I saw it as being one factor of many that need to be considered when faced with such an issue (which I don't think is one a parent should take lightly). Obviously if it was the most important factor you would have a point, but to say that it shouldn't be a factor at all is ridiculous. In a normal, right wing home teenage girls do not have much exposure to the opposite sex, and if their primary exposure becomes troubled boys in their early 20s then there is a greater potential that the object of their teenage crush is going to be someone their parent finds less than acceptable, which also allows for the possibility the relationship might go somewhere. The message that was repeated wasn't "don't have teenage boys at your table" rather "don't have boys you wouldn't want as son in laws at your table". It's a very big difference, because it isn't about what a boy wants from a girl but what a boy and a girl might see in each other that a parent might frown upon.
And ironically, the mechanchim who usually give the most chareidi responses were the ones who were the most open to the family hosting the boys while the mechanchim who are usually a bit more open minded counseled against having them over for meals. I don't think this was as black and white as you are making it out to be.
Overall, your point might be valid but I don't think you have adequately demonstrated it in this post.
SIL:
Not sure which rabbis you are referring to, but I find that, IMHO, the one who has the most sensible answers (for the most part) is Yaakov Bender.
Yes!! She's back!!! :)
big bro:
He does, and in this case he stated unequivocally that they shouldn't have the boys over. Another one who is also pretty sensible is Aron Fink who is the principle of a girl's school. He was also against it.
i didn't read the article discussed in this post. r' bender's response as reported in sil's comment is in tune with r' bender's yeshiva's policy. i doubt he would publicly suggest something against yeshiva rules.
michelle--
as i said, i have not read the article. so i don't know whether this was really their main point. but in a society in which young people don't have much to do with the opposite sex until dating, it makes some sense to keep them separate in social settings. this is not because all guys are horny. and it's not because all girls are sex objects. it's because they don't know what's appropriate and what's not. having attended touro, that lovely and intelligent college on avenue j, i have seen BY type girls flirt incessantly with professors. why? not because they have anything inappropriate in mind. because they don't know what flirting is. so they don't know they're doing it. young girls who have been associated with other girls all their lives have no idea how to relate to guys. so supposing a guy comes to the shabbos table and makes a somewhat inappropriate remark. your 8 yr old repeats it later. you say "honey, i know so-and-so said that at the table, but we don't say that in this family. our guest said it, and i didn't say anything then because i didn't want to embarrass him. but you may not say anything like that again, ever." that's a chinuch opportunity. if the guy says it to your teenage daughter, well, she probably won't repeat it. but supposing she flirts with him by mistake. and i do mean by mistake. because frankly, teenage girls are very stupid in some respects. can they have a non-problematic relationship? sure. can they have a problematic relationship? sure. it can go both ways. when you have little kids meeting adults who are different in any way, a good parent will turn it into a chinuch moment. once the kid is a teenager, the chinuch isn't as possible. i had a professor tell a 19 yr old student that she was being inappropriate. her response?
"what do you mean? (giggle, giggle, bat eyelashes)"
straight-A student, stupid teenager. it's so common. she seriously didn't get it. now this was a frum professor. we also had a very intelligent non-jewish professor who thought he was G-d's gift to women. had she been in that class, i can assure you he would flirt back. he flirted with everyone anyway. but she wouldn't have recognized flirting if it had hit her in the face.
i wouldn't put a teenage boy in the same room as her. certainly not at the same table. sorry, it's a recipe for disaster.
Kaila: I'm....*cough*. ..I...take night classes at Touro on J, and I kind of wonder which professors you would be talking about!..
I recently witnessed sort of the opposite phenomenon; we had some sort of orientation regarding the library given by the attractive (main) night librarian, and even then, some of the guys were making comments that can be taken as "inappropriate" for people that age. (Thank G_d she's not a professor!)
Kudos to you, Michelle for picking such a risque topic, dont think even I would have the guts.
Off course, they are obsessed about sex, you can thank the wonderful seminaries for doing such a phenomenal job of indoctrinating the girls and making them totally neurotic.
I work with a lady. One day it was raining and very cold. There was a young bchur walking, so I stopped to offer a ride. Even though, this lady is 27, and married, she vehemently protested to him, sitting in the back seat of the car. If this was sincere, or based on yiras shomayim, even a miniscule drop, I would respect it. However, in areas of kasrus, middos, hilchos momonus, ehlichkeit she is very lax. So its obvious that its just a hang-up or insecurity ..
Maybe, she thinks shes so gorgous that a 14 yr old boy will be uncontrollably attracted to her during a 5 minute car ride..
It's a great point. I take offense to it as well. I dont believe in shutting my ears and eyes to the world around us. There is such a thing known as self control.
1) While some teenagers are thoughtful and discerning individuals many are still finding themselves and don't have the best judgment.
2) We are not talking about a normal situation between any male and any female, we are talking about guys who have serious emotional disturbances and are seeking help but have not YET been helped.
wow , im assuming that most people that are posting on this blog are not male because...wow how off base you are. if a guy sees a girl he finds attractive, then it doesnt take much for the guy to get the girl assuming the guy knows what hes doing. does no one know the story of bruria? is that story told for fun? guys are guys. dont you people ever read the news? every other politician is involved in some sex scandal or another. and these are supposed to be the elite of society. so now i ask you, how can you be so naive as to think that these rehab kids are going to hold themselves back if they see a girl they like? seriously stop being so naive and grow up. the american culture doesnt even try to hide this phenomena, think about all the movies youve seen with this idea in mind. really its not such a secret that guys hit on girls.
To Anon 2/23/09 9:50am - Hey Rabbi Orlofsky, I didn't know you read this blog. Welcome!
Michelle,
When will you write another post so that the word "sex" doesn't have to be blazed at the top of your blog?
Michelle, I really like your blog. This is a very important topic. I have a comment regarding my personal experience. I went to an all girls Bais Yaakov for twelve long years and recently graduated. I was the shy, quiet girl in the corner, I was in the honors chumash class, I lapped up every word. I did not know any boys that were not related to me. Eventually, I had enough. I shocked everyone by going to a Community College instead of Seminary. The culture shock was extreme. When I naively said I went to an all girls school, I could see the boys undressing me with their eyes. It was a novelty to finally be able to use my feminine wiles, but I had no clue how to. In two semesters, I had two male ex-classmates who considered me their ex-girlfriend. I kissed the first boy who told me I was pretty. I wasted my first kiss on an idiot.
Girls have to be taught how to react to attention. Not to be polite little good girls who do so much chessed they forget how to say NO! My excellently brainwashed mind caused me a lot of problems. Just because you can do that now, doesn't mean you should.
The world is a very big place. Pretending that girls will always be surrounded by good people is a sham. I am not a stupidly promiscuous girl. I am not a good girl gone bad. I am not a stereotype. I was just very naive. Through trial and error, I am not naive anymore.
While it's true that not all men are horn dogs, a lot are! I come from a non-orthodox background and as a result I've had many bad experiences with men which have resulted from being naive, good hearted and basically "too friendly". While guys aren't monsters, people are sexual human beings and stuff can happen. Most of the people posting comments on this blog are women. They don't know how perverts think. And while I'm not calling men perverts, a lot of people, men and women are sexual and stuff can happen. This is from personal experience. It's better that guys like this stay away from nice Jewish girls. And yes, I agree that a younger brother shouldn't invite his male friends to sleep over, even if his sister is 22 or 25. There are a lot of attractive women who are in their 20s. Attractive is attractive and many 17 year old boys do have crushes on older women and some can overstep their bounds. It's inappropriate for a boy to invite his male friends to sleep over when he has a sister sleeping there who is older than 10. This is coming from someone not-herraidi and yes, this is coming from all my bad sexual experiences with men due to my innocence. I never had sex but a bad first kiss and a bad sexual assault can be just as bad. And people shouldn't pretend that that couldn't happen in the frum community especially when girls are like I was, very innocent and naive.
R and Anon - thanks for your meaningful and important comments.
Perhaps my post was a little extreme - i defended the guys a little too much. I was frustrated by the rabbis' answers.
Sleeping over, yes, is a problem. A meal? I think a lot of good came out of what that woman did. If these young men are on their paths back to yiddishkeit, she's done a lot.
As far as going from a Bais Yaakov to a community college, I, too experienced some culture shock when I entered Brooklyn College from my sheltered Bais Yaakov life.
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