Tuesday, January 20, 2009

Reverse Proposals?

On Z100 this morning, they were discussing the idea of a woman proposing to a man.
Elvis was begging his colleagues, and many listeners, to open their minds to the new way of doing things.

Someone mentioned that this was a way of bringing equality between the sexes, and the more traditional method of a man proposing to a woman has become outdated.


In the book He's Just Not That Into You, the authors note that according to their study, 100% of relationships initiated by the woman failed. Now, they're not saying that after the couple has been dating a year, the woman proposed, and therefore the relationship failed.

Also, judging by the casual style the book was written, I wouldn't imagine their "studies" were purely scientific.

In many ways, salaries for one, I'm all for equality. Wasn't there an equal rights amendment that was unsuccessful? For good reason. I do not want men in my restrooms or fitting rooms, thank you very much.

I find that if a woman has to propose to a man, she loses the upper-hand in the relationship. Not like she had much of it to begin with.

The nature of these relationships is that the guy pursues the girl; generally not the other way around.

Would any of the women in the audience consider proposing?
How would the men in the audience react to that?


At 1/20/2009 10:10 AM, Anonymous Jessica said...

"In the book He's Just Not That Into You, the authors note that according to their study, 100% of relationships initiated by the woman failed."
Uh... I initiated the relationship with my now husband. We've been together for over three years, we're happily married and we have a new baby. I had never heard of this book until reading this right now, but it seems it's full of crap.

At 1/20/2009 11:05 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Generalizations do not tend to be useful. (Note that I did not say that "All generalizations are not useful," b/c that would just be another generalization). I proposed to my fiance, and it was the right thing to do. Some men are not mature enough or do not have the personality to make the first move. I realize that in frum circles, the men are told that they are supposed to propose after x or y amount of time, so that may be a different story.

As for the ERA, the main consequence would have been to assure women equal pay for equal work. Without it, that goal has not come to pass. Is that ok with you?

At 1/20/2009 11:55 AM, Anonymous Moshe Dov said...

Please, it's all part of Elvis' coverup and all. Of course he's begging his listeners to be open-minded.

But I have to agree with the first two commenters - every situation is different, and every relationship is different. In some relationships the guy has the "upper hand," other times the girl, sometimes it's one-sided, other times not as much. People have changed over the years, as have expectations for relationships and the roles played by each individual.

I have heard people discuss girls asking guys out, which is a similar issue. I'm not opposed to it- to me, it all depends on the girl and what she has to offer, which isn't much different that what a girl thinks about when she's asked out.

But in the end, I think there's a lot more to what defines a relationship than who asked who out and who proposed. So I don't think it really matters.

At 1/20/2009 3:39 PM, Blogger EsPes said...

ive initiated relationships before, but i dont think i would propose!!!

At 1/20/2009 8:21 PM, Anonymous big bro #2 said...

Girls should ask the guy out and propose if necessary. Sometimes a guy is unsure (some by nature are indecisive), and maybe he needs a kick in the fanny to let him know that he cannot just drag things out. I know of cases where the girl pursued the guy and they are happily married.

At 1/21/2009 6:35 PM, Blogger Kaila said...

michelle, look at this in terms of shidduch dating. when dating gets "serious," the couple has to discuss their plans. sometimes this is an official proposal. sometimes there's discussion first. if the girl asks the guy what his intentions are, where he's holding in terms of an emotional connection with her, etc., it's basically the same as saying "will you marry me." so he proposes officially later, but i don't see that it's so different.

i would also like to point out that a relationship starts before engagement. the girl is not initiating anything by proposing. they know beforehand that they're interested in marriage.

At 1/25/2009 12:28 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 11:05 said:

"As for the ERA, the main consequence would have been to assure women equal pay for equal work."

Fiddlesticks. There's a federal equal pay act, Title VII, and there are also state equal pay acts. The ERA had the potential to go far, far beyond equal pay for equal work.

"Without it, that goal has not come to pass."

Whoever told you that is fudging the statistics and not controlling for hours, experience, education and type of job. When you control for those factors women get equal pay for equal work.

Ichabod Chrain

At 1/26/2009 3:45 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

what world are you living in ichabod? women don't get equal pay or equal job opportunities. Speaking from experience, having worked within a large organization where women and men doing the same level jobs got vastly different salaries. Who's going to prove that members of both genders have the exact same experience, credentials, job requirements etc.? nobody does. There will never be any proof unless they hire a man and a woman on the exact same day with the exact same background for the exact same job but give different salaries. and i guess i won't wait for that to happen. but you and I know that it's a man's world.

At 1/26/2009 6:21 PM, Blogger Want said...

I have not gone blogging in years. I found your blog and the way you articulate your disappointment with those around you, honest and refreshing. It is challenging not to turn one's back on the community they grew up in when they find the people they encounter in that community small minded. You are both grounded- evident in the fact that you are not indifferent about what's going on around you- and willing to challenge the accepted norms. A great combination that will hopefully lead to you experiencing an exciting unscripted yet torah life. I am much older than you and nevertheless truly enjoyed what I read. I wish you luck and hope you will soon find your lucky soul mate.

At 1/31/2009 7:54 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I proposed to my chosson because he wasn't ready to commit. He broke our engagement 2 weeks later because he really wasn't ready!!!

Although times may have changed, Human nature remains the same and neither have boy-girl dynamics. Boys need to feel like they won a prize and girls need to feel pursued.

I would NOT recommend female proposals!

At 2/02/2009 11:07 AM, Blogger Michelle said...

Want -- Thank you. That means a lot to me :)

Anon -- wow...I am sorry that happened to you. Keen observation about men winning the prize and women feeling pursued.
Although I find many men forget that quickly (or never felt it at all) because the way they talk "my WIFE....talk to her..." in a derogatory tone...

At 2/09/2009 10:50 PM, Blogger Benjamin E. said...

Incidentally, a chunk of the still-present disparity in pay between men and women has been chalked up to the fact that when offered a starting salary, men tend to negotiate for a higher salary than women do - women tend to accept what they are offered. Just an interesting data point.

I also tend to agree that it's not really fair to make generalizations because the one who takes them to heart is going to end up being the one to whom they don't apply. Hmmm...

At 3/10/2009 8:51 PM, Blogger chanie said...

No, better to know that he's wrapped around your finger (which he is, if he'll propose and he's a decent guy), than to wrap yourself around his.

You hold the power, as long as he's not some kind of monster (which, unfortunately, do exist). Don't give it up by proposing to him...

At 7/27/2009 5:49 PM, Blogger Michael said...

Men want to feel honored and respected, women want to feel cherished and adored.

(Generally speaking)

This is why the man should propose to the woman. The girl feels adored/desired, and the guy feels like he's the brave one who took the initiative and proposed.

I know it sounds silly, but I think that that's just the way it works.


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