Monday, February 26, 2007

Up in Smoke

Certainly there are insane stories about questions asked when checking out boys for Shidduchim.
I have few "make or break" factors before I am willing to give the guy a date. Most are workable, but the issue of smoking is the one I won't budge on.

I've had guys sound great and all that, but once I hear that they smoke, anything you say won't be able to change my mind.

I am not ready to watch a husband actively shave years off his life.

"It's so hard to quit," people justify. Hey, buddy, it's hard to get up early every day. It's hard to take 18 credits in Brooklyn College. It's hard to be a working mother. It's hard to diet. It's hard to get up and go to work day after day. It's hard to do a lot of things. Yet, people do them.

One person compared smoking to Lashon Hora. "You speak Lashon Hora, don't you?" he asked. "Yeah, I do," feeling ashamed. "Well, it's hard to quit that, isn't it?" he asked. "Yes," I replied. "Everyone has a weakness," he explained. "Yours is Lashon Hora, his is smoking."

I don't know how true that is. Can one compare Lashon Hora to smoking? Smoking takes years off someone's physical life, but Lashon Hora certainly doesn't help the Olam Haba'ah situation. Smoking is purely physical, and emotional. Lashon Hora is more spiritual-especially since we don't have Tzora'at nowadays.

When people tell me the guy is "Great but he smokes," that's an oxymoron. He can't be great if he smokes.
He's either a very nervous guy, and needs to calm down, or he's an addictive personality who's weak without self-control. Or he was weak in terms of peer pressure and felt the need to fit in. Are these characteristics one needs in a husband?

My friend told me about a 25-year-old single woman in her office who said, "I used to be like you. Worried about whether the guy smokes. Now I'm just happy if it's only cigarettes."

That's further proof of this idiotic society making this woman feel like crap because she isn't married. I don't think anyone should have to "settle" for a smoker if they are adamently against smoking.


At 2/26/2007 9:14 AM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Smoking is the breaker? Yeesh. It's not healthy but it's not like it's a moral failing either.

"He's either a very nervous guy, and needs to calm down, or he's an addictive personality who's weak without self-control. Or he was weak in terms of peer pressure and felt the need to fit in."

Or maybe he just started the habit one day and got hooked. It is chemically addictive you know.

The are plenty of good reasons why smoking would be unattractive and therefore a justifiable reason not to go for someone, but there's no need to go over the top by moralizing the whole thing.

At 2/26/2007 10:13 AM, Anonymous chani said...

I agree with Michelle 100%. Smoking is proven to be dangerous. If someone smokes, I'm assuming he probably got into because of peer pressure-something which I very much do not respect. Yeah, it's hard to quit, but people do it. Smoking kills! I'm not willing to marry someone who 1.doesn't care about his life enough to quit 2. Doesn't care about his wife & kids' lives enough to quit-secondhand smoke is even worse then smoking yourself.

At 2/26/2007 10:18 AM, Anonymous gavi said...

As if we needed a psak to tell us...

Venishmartem me'od lenafshoteichem - it is an obligation to take care of our bodies.

That, and I couldn't see myself kissing an ashtray... Neither my wife nor I smoke.

At 2/26/2007 10:20 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Michelle and Chani: as a fellow female, we cannot possibly pass judgment on men who smoke. We have absolutely no peer pressure nor any desire to pick up a cigarette. It is so not a part of female society. All we see are the dangers and detriments. Of course it's stupid to smoke. However, standing outside, it's a lot easier to condemn it. Maybe we should look inside ourselves and see the stupid things we do before juding others. And besides, with such a small pool of decent guys out there, who wants to start ruling out more than 50% of them because they smoke? A lot of good guys smoke. And yes, they're still good guys.

At 2/26/2007 10:37 AM, Anonymous Ike said...

I'm with Orthorpax on this one.

Yes, I think smoking is a nasty habit. I hate talking to people with smoking breath, sitting in their cars and houses, and smelling that odor. Yeah, and it kills people. So if I were a girl being set up with a smoker, I don't care if he looks like Brad Pitt and has millions in real estate. I'd say no.

But in terms of it being a moral failing? As orthoprax suggests, we don't know for sure. There are plenty of other moral failings out there that almost everyone has; everyone has chesronos which can also be construed as something horrible.

Take the lashon hora example: Someone who speaks a lot of lashon hora has terrible self-control over their speech. They're probably jealous of most of the people they diss. And their self-esteem is probably in the toilet; they get a boost from putting others down. Maybe they speak lashon hora to look cool - they're giving in to peer pressure. And as a potential wife, how do you know he won't say lashon hora about you to his friends?

So how would you feel about a guy who's "great, but speaks a lot of lashon hora"?

Or maybe he speaks lashon hara because it's so common, and he's simply unaware of it.

IOW, from a moral standpoint, it all depends how you look at it.

- Another thing I would address - guys who are obese, and do nothing about it. Aside from the physical unattractiveness factor, the guy is killing himself with every trans-fat filled food he gorges.

At 2/26/2007 12:23 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


absolutely untrue. there is peer pressure in female cultures to smoke. I don't know what world you live in. Whether or not there is peer pressure, no one can plead ignorance when it comes to smoking. It is well known that not only does smoking cause the smoker harm, it also causes those who inhale the secondhand smoke serious damage. In fact, secondhand smoke does more harm than firsthand smoke. so a young guy who smokes is making a serious statement about his values. He says one of two things:

a) I'm not really addicted so it's ok if I do it occasionally. After all, it everyone else's smoke that'll cause passersby cancer

b)I don't care enough for my own health or anyone else's to be ashamed of smoking in public.

Either attitude is unacceptable. you don't want to marry a man who doesn't care about your health. a big part of marriage is real concern for your spouse's welfare. If you want to marry one of these guys, I suggest you tell him he must quit before the wedding. Secondhand smoke can be especially dangerous for pregnant women and fetuses. It can cause serious birth defects. They may be good guys in most ways, but if they're thinking guys, they'll quit.

At 2/26/2007 12:56 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon 10:20-sorry, i should've clarified-i meant in the frum jewish world, smoking is not as much of a "thing" by women as it is by men. You won't find groups of bais yaakov girls smoking outside of school as you will most definitely find boys smoking outside of a yeshiva. You can't argue that. It's perfectly normal for a yeshiva guy to smoke. It is NOT normal for a bais yaakov girl to smoke

At 2/26/2007 5:18 PM, Blogger Michelle said...

Orthoprax- I understand it's chemically addictive, but there are methods of quitting. And whatever it was that made him pick up that first cigarette was probably something not too impressive.

At 2/26/2007 6:21 PM, Blogger David_on_the_Lake said...

Oh come on..
That Lashon Hora argument is so lame.
No one would call themselves a loshon hora talker...and if one slips cannot compare it to pulling out a pack of cigarettes..removing one..putting it in your mouth and lighting up..

I agree with should be make or break...besides who would want to kiss a smoker?

At 2/26/2007 6:56 PM, Blogger rescue said...

As a guy, I say don't even consider smokers. It is a habbit which one forces upon himself. There are other "bad" things out there also such as being overweight ect., but in those cases there is also a family history which could contribute. But to willingly and purposely kill yourself, there is no excuse.

At 2/26/2007 8:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


causing others health problems knowingly is a moral failing.

At 2/26/2007 8:57 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...


"I understand it's chemically addictive, but there are methods of quitting. And whatever it was that made him pick up that first cigarette was probably something not too impressive."

And? It's a bad habit. Do you look at someone who bites their nails in the same way? Or, to get the health angle in, how about the guy that loves junk food and refuses to eat right?

The point is that it's a gross and unhealthy habit that you find unattractive. That's enough. There's no need to label smokers as bad people because of it or to otherwise derive all sorts of other bad characteristics for them.


"causing others health problems knowingly is a moral failing."

And all smokers are people who intentionally blow their smoke into the faces of newborns?

The fact is that if you smoke outdoors or take basic precautions to not smoke around others then the only person at risk is you.

At 2/27/2007 9:02 AM, Anonymous Ike said...

Dave: There are two ways to look at what's wrong with smoking - a) it's a nasty habit and is dangerous, too, and b) that it reflects serious moral shortcomings in a person.

My point was that I agree with "a," but in terms of "b," I think you can't really tell. I said that you can make the same statements about any shortcoming someone has, whether they speak lashon hora, are lazy, talk too much, whatever. Or you can just give the guy a pass.

At 2/27/2007 9:30 AM, Blogger Notsofrummie said...

Anyone who posted a comment sayting that smoking is ok and isaid it should not be a make it or break it point is probably a smoker or married to one. To me, there is something about a person that smokes. They cant take care of themselves, dont care their health, and they have a 'coolness factor' in them.

At 2/27/2007 9:58 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

unless you smoke in your own completely sealed back yard, you cannot take basic precautions to avoid giving others a whiff of secondhand smoke. I live in an apartment, and i smell the smoke of the guy whose backyard faces mine. It smells up my bedroom. Let me tell you, i don't need to smell that in my own home, and i don't want my child smelling it either. I'd love to know which precautions you refer to.

At 2/27/2007 11:51 AM, Blogger Michelle said...

rescue-good point.

While there certainly is an obesity gene (as well as learned habits, but this is not the topic at hand), there is no "smoking" gene. There isn't a gay gene either, but that's another story, too.

I don't know who said it, but whoever it was that said with Lashon hora, we slip up--that is a great point, too. Although to be honest, I sometimes find myself saying Lashon hora wishing I could stop. But generally, it just happens. Its easier to just TALK than to purchase cigarettes, a lighter, actively smoke, find a PLACE to smoke, and yes, cause people physical damage.

I know, i know, Lashon hora causes emotional and psychological damage...

At 2/27/2007 1:21 PM, Blogger Amiegreen said...

Tobacco is a Poison! You can use it as a spray to kill the bugs on your vegie patch. I see Jewish Kosha, one must wash the lettuce not only to wash off the insecticide, but clean of all bugs. Heaven help you if you swallow a fly.

Read recently of Monsanta paying people to say Tobacco caused their health problems, not the poisonous sprays used on what we eat!

Husband Hunting, part of sexualization?

At 2/27/2007 2:01 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...


"unless you smoke in your own completely sealed back yard, you cannot take basic precautions to avoid giving others a whiff of secondhand smoke."

Do you use a motor vehicle? Ever had a barbecue? Ever went camping? Ever burn your chometz in public?

In doing so, you think others didn't breathe in the potentially deadly carcinogens and other pollutive materials?

Case closed.


"Anyone who posted a comment sayting that smoking is ok and isaid it should not be a make it or break it point is probably a smoker or married to one."

For the record I don't smoke, nor am I married, nor have I ever dated a smoker. I find the habit repulsive and unhealthy.

Anyone here eat a lot of candy? You know, those simple sugars that immediately make your blood glucose do somersaults? Anyone not exercise on a regular basis?

Don't you know that obesity and diabetes are the fastest growing medical problems in the United States? Whenever I see a guy drinking a coke, I just think that he doesn't care about his health and is unwilling to take care of himself. Bastard.

Anyone ever go to the beach or a tanning salon? Don't those people know that UV rays are terrible for their skin and often induce melanomas? What immoral people!

At 2/27/2007 6:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

At 2/28/2007 9:22 AM, Anonymous Chani said...

I would not be willing to marry a smoker, but I would not be willing to marry someone who consistantly spoke lashon hara either. Everyone slips up once in a while, but if someone speaks lashon hara all the time, I don't think he is someone I want to marry or be friends with.
Also, I used to bite my nails, but I stopped. I naturally tend to be lazy, but I try to exercise a little every day & to walk places instead of driving whenever possible. I love junk food, but try (sometimes unsuccessfully, but I still try) to limit my consumption of it. Not because I'm fat or need to watch my weight, but because junk food isn't healthy for me. Anything else I left out?
I try to take care of myself & I expect the same of my future husband.

At 2/28/2007 10:44 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


motor cars are not habits--they are modes of transportation. for the record, i don't drive, i use public transportation when possible. As for your comment on burning chometz- that's a mitzvah, not a habit either. For the once a year that it's done, it's fine. smoking consistently increases in frequency and can consume the person. And the amount of people smoking on the streets is enough to give any innocent pedestrian health problems. So it's ok for a yeshiva bochur to add to that? and to cause himself medical grief later on? if he learns full time, will his wife have to provide health insurance for him, and will they have to pay tons of money in copays and prescriptions for his foolishness? this, of course, is in addition to general household costs, like rent, food, utilities, tuition, etc, which can cause a lack of funds when taken from one income. And even if he's going to work, if his wife stays home with kids, they'll still be on one income. If she works too, they have additional costs, such as childcare. there's also commuting costs and others. It's very hard to get by these days, especially if one is a homeowner due to real estate prices and mortgages. so no one wants additional medical bills, which he probably will have, and his children will too. They will be more prone to respiratory illnesses. And on a non-monetary value, how can someone do that to himself and say it's moral?

In short, don't tell me that smoking is the eqivalent of using cars, camping and burning chometz. why don't you add cooking on a gas stove to the deal? Should we eat everything raw?

At 2/28/2007 11:41 AM, Blogger Notsofrummie said...

I never said other habits are healthy. Just because one is accustomed to one unhealthy habit doesnt justify other unhealthy habits. Lets start with one. FYI - im skinny and exersize as much as i can. I care about all spectrums of health ( and i too expect my future wife to do the same).

At 2/28/2007 11:57 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have a friend who won't go out with a smoker because she has asthma so that's self-explanatory. If you don't want to go out with a smoker, that's fine. It's your choice. But you realize that the guy isn't necessarily an immoral person because he smokes. And the Loshon Hara example is dumb - we all speak loshon hara to some degree or another.

At 2/28/2007 1:12 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

You guys are such BS artists. I'm very impressed.

Yes, you're all perfect and have no bad habits. Right.

Anon, Notsofrummie,

The point was that we all do things that can be unhealthy to ourselves and others. Personally, there are times when I drive for fun! Times when I could have walked but felt like being lazy! I know, I guess I'm a terrible person with all sorts of other moral personality flaws because of that.

The point was also that people are doing all sorts of unhealthy things all the time yet I don't think you guys would damn them because of those things. Smoking is socially stigmatized - and for good reason - but it makes you all look silly when you pick that out as a moral failing far beyond any other bad habits.

"In short, don't tell me that smoking is the eqivalent of using cars, camping and burning chometz. why don't you add cooking on a gas stove to the deal? Should we eat everything raw?"

Quite right! It would be healthier!

Furthermore, you did an interesting switcheroo in your response, Anon. We were talking about how smoking outdoors is still terribly immoral because it can harm others - and for which I gave several other examples of other activities that can likewise harm others that you would not damn - and you didn't!

In response though, you again start talking about the individual's own potential health problems and how expensive it could be. And I would again respond that its on the same level as all sorts of other unhealthy activities that you would not so damn.

Is anyone not picking up on the double standard?

At 2/28/2007 1:50 PM, Blogger Michelle said...

Someone mentioned yeshiva boys smoking. How could I have neglected that in my post??
I guess I was solely focused on the Shidduch aspect-but why do you think yeshiva bachurim smoke? They have NO OUTLETS! Anything besides learning is Bittul Torah--not like I condone smoking, but there's a huge lack in the system. But I am not looking for a Yeshivish guy anyway.

At 2/28/2007 3:56 PM, Anonymous Ike said...

anon 11:57 - your argument is dumber - Just because everyone speaks lashon hora doesn't make it right.

And I never said lashon hora was as bad or worse than smoking. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

My point was, you can do the whole psychoanalysis thing there too.

At 2/28/2007 6:11 PM, Blogger Jacob Da Jew said...

I dated a girl who smoked. Nasty. Foul. I hated it. Kissing her was so gross.

She didn't last too long.

At 3/01/2007 4:18 AM, Blogger JBL the first said...

You got my 100% support on that and you shouldn't give in. If you don't want a smoker you shouldn't compromise.
Only it's not as you really make it there are hundreds of smokers that are normal people with normal lives. Although I never held a lighted cigarette in my hand, and hate people when they smoke. I can't say that they're crazy and etc etc.

At 3/01/2007 6:51 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A girl who doesn't want a smoker should ask before she meets him.It is very wrong to meet someone and reject him because he smokes when you should of found out prior to meeting him.

At 3/01/2007 7:23 AM, Blogger Michelle said...

Anon 6:51-that's precisely what I do. I don't know why you assumed otherwise. I don't like to mislead, or be mislead. If i knew it would go nowhere if he smokes, I wouldn't want to mislead him. I ask that about every boy to ensure that nobody is mislead, and that smokers are immediately eliminated.

At 3/01/2007 7:33 AM, Anonymous anon of 6:51 said...

I didn't say you don't ask beforehand.However being that I have friends who were rejected by girls they already met for smoking I think the point that one should find out beforehand is important to make.

At 3/01/2007 10:09 AM, Blogger Mel said...

Wow, I have never seen such flawed logic in my entire life. On both sides of the fence.

1) I started smoking when I was 16 in camp. I went into camp as one of 5 non-smokers out of a staff of over 50 people. Tell me that the same peer-pressure exists in any other social setting! I can tell you that the motivation to light that first smoke was probably the equivelant of the pressure for a girl to brush her hair before a date. (we have to look at the rooted motivations, not the symptons of the real issues.)

2) I have never met a smoker who didn't regret starting. WE WERE YOUNG AND UNEDUCATED. (I have to live with the ramifications of my mistake.)

3) Though smoking is very dangerous, and probably socially inappropriate, medical science has made some very serious head-way with prevention, and assisting in smoking cessation. (just because he smokes today, doesn't mean he will die younger.)

4)What really gets my goat though is that many people are bothered by the smell, but they use second-hand smoke and health issues to look altruistic and hide their own selfishness. (If you really think about it, those people are the worst kind of people, as they are unfaithful to themselves, and they soil altruism with their pseudo-I'm-one-of-the-good-guys act.)

5)Do you know anything about withdrawals from chemical addictions? They are very unpleasant, and when the simple solution to feel better is to whip out a cigarette, it's kinda hard to not do everything in your power to make the pain go away. (This is the reason many people are successful at quiting after they get engaged, as the solution of buying a pack is no longer an option.)

6)There is right now a drug on the market which has something like an 80% success rate of assisting smoking cessation. (with this in mind, anyone can quit. the fact that they didn't quit yet is a simple necessity factor. I know I have to quit, and I would be shocked if I smoked in 6 months from now... But why can't I quit tomorrow. Don't preach self-control, when it is a chemical addiction, which by definition means you can't quit on your own without help.)

7) Are you gonna judge me on my mistake from 8 years ago? Especially when it is a non-issue, as I am actively cutting back and striving to quit.

8) More importantly, Why would I want to marry a girl who is so close-minded and naive? Someone who plays into peer-pressure of the masses everyday. Someone who doesn't know how to seperate real issues like narcissism, and concocted issues which are easily reformed.Someone who lets others do her thinking for her? Someone who pretends to care about second hand smoke, when they are really just being selfish about the smell.

9)Bottom line, being a smoker has significantly diminished the girls I can date, which sucks, because I am a great guy, who is healthy and balanced. I made a mistake, and I am actively working on reforming and bettering myself. Is that such a sin? Do you make any mistakes when you were a teenager?

10) As far as kissing an ashtray. ever hear of GUM, or breath mints, or mouth wash?

11) the most likely scenario to play out for a girl like you is that some guy will hide the fact that he smokes (like so many do) and your relationships foundation will be built on a premise of lies, secrets and hiding. I have many married friends who hide smoking from their wives... What losers. Better face the music. and have a healthy and open relationship.
they hide it because their wives are too closed minded to think about it honestly. What losers.

12) If you were really the type of girl worthy of marrying a real gentleman and mensch, who is balanced and healthy, you would get off your high horse, and stop judging people for 10 yr. old mistakes especially when they are easily rectifiable under the right conditions. (Loving support from friends and family.With circumstances which justify facing the painful withdrawal.)

Stigmatizing it, only serves to create two camps with little motivation or chance for a smoker to quit.

You should read my blog post titled, "Kicking the Butt of the Yeshiva System."

Where I take your side on the matter, and your post actually proves my points.


At 3/02/2007 11:38 AM, Blogger Michelle said...

Buddy---saying it's a mistake and not quitting--you're taking the easy road. So call me naive, judgemental, whatever you want, but you're lazy. You have accomplished step 1: realizing it was a mistake.
We all do things we don't want to do, and that are hard for us to do. By saying that whipping out a cigarette is easier than quitting is like saying it's easier to plagiarize than do you own work.
WELL, DUH! But you have to take responsibility for your decisions. You decided to smoke, it's your responsibility for your health, and those around you to quit. I chose to attend college. It is my responsibility to do the work to the best of my ability.

Did I mention second-hand smoke? No. Because I am woman enough to admit that the smell gets to me. I had friends in college who smoked. We were studying together as she smoked, and she asked to read my paper. "Sorry, but I really don't want my papers smelling like smoke. Is it okay if I read it aloud?" I asked. People who smoke know it stinks, and most are nice enough to realize that Non-smokers don't enjoy it.

At 3/02/2007 11:44 AM, Blogger Michelle said...

As for #11--G-d forbid!
i plan to having an open relationship! Those who don't know me personally are unaware of an extremely difficult relationship that I went through a few years ago that taught me a lot about deception. Please don't say things like that to people. You never know who they might be, or what they might have gone through.

At 3/02/2007 11:47 AM, Blogger Independent Frum Thinker said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

At 3/02/2007 11:50 AM, Blogger Independent Frum Thinker said...

Smoking is wrong and is a big problem.
I discussed this on my blog here:
No Smoking

At 3/03/2007 8:22 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi! Please grab anti-Olmert's Purim buttons from
The buttons are free and could be hotlinked. Let's make some fun of Olmert!

At 3/03/2007 8:22 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi! Please grab anti-Olmert's Purim buttons from
The buttons are free and could be hotlinked. Let's make some fun of Olmert!

At 3/05/2007 10:02 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


At 3/05/2007 10:31 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...


and doesn't it say something about your family that they're not supportive and loving enough to help you quit? when you marry someone, you marry his/her family. Don't force this on your future wife. quit with the help of the people you know now.

and at the age of 16, you should be old enough to know better.

At 3/06/2007 10:10 AM, Anonymous Chani said...

For all those who gave the addiction argument, drinking & drugs are also addictive. Would that be an adequate excuse? Would you be willing to marry an alcoholic or a druggie?

At 3/06/2007 10:23 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

chani-you're missing the point. Drug and Alcohol addictions have far more serious and immediate consequences. Someone who smokes won't necessarily see the effects as clearly as someone on drugs, nor will he be out of commission every time he smokes (as would someone who gets high or drinks). I'm not diminishing the serious dangers posed by smoking, but you cannot possibly compare it to drinking or doing drugs. The more apt comparison thus far was to eating junk food or not maintaining a healthy weight.

At 3/07/2007 10:57 PM, Blogger Dofan Akuma said...

1. If you don't want to date/marry a smoker who can argue with that?
I mean, all you're saying is you're not keen about having to deal with the quite probable health problems that surface for smokers and their families.
2. You don't have to be passing moral judgment on these unfortunate people. You are simply saying that this is one problem you don't want to deal with. Some people don't want to deal with obesity, some with handicaps, etc. Everyone has her own issues that are deal-breakers (and in this humble opinion you have chosen wisely here).

At 7/09/2007 1:40 AM, Anonymous Jimmy Justice said...

if you dont want to agree to a shidduch because someone is a smoker and you think it is unhealthy......

consider this:

dont marry someone who eats red meat its not healthy...

dont marry someone who breathes new yorks polluted air

dont marry someone who drives a car, it is very dangerous....

dont marry someone who rides the subway because people can chas visholom fall on the tracks...

dont marry someone who is older than you because he might die first....

dont marry someone who is younger than you because you might die first.....

do you get the idea or should i continue...

At 7/16/2007 9:27 AM, Blogger MAK said...

I know I would not marry someone who smokes, not only because of the health issue, but to be honest, I don't want to be around someone who smells like an ashtray. Maybe that's a bit harsh, but it's the way I feel.

At 7/16/2007 9:27 AM, Blogger MAK said...

I know I would not marry someone who smokes, not only because of the health issue, but to be honest, I don't want to be around someone who smells like an ashtray. Maybe that's a bit harsh, but it's the way I feel.


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