Thursday, January 04, 2007

Limudei Chol

Last week, I actually read something else besides Readers Write in the Yated.

There was an article about limudei chol. The writer had taught both limudei kodesh and chol in various yeshivos, and can't seem to figure out why the limudei chol programs aren't successful. They're always looking for new teachers, the kids never behave, never excell, and if they decide to attend college, they are way below standard levels in writing.

He also claims that the common idea that parents and yeshivos don't care is a fallacy.

I don't mean to disrespect him, or undermine his knowledge which is clearly more complete than mine, but here's what I have to say regarding the matter:

Maybe the Rebbeim do "care," but do they stress it? They say, as the author does, that Limudei Kodesh is more important, and that chol should take a backseat. Didn't he just answer his own question? Why not put them on an equal plane? OY! Chas V'Shalom!

We can't make them equal because Gemorah and Chumash come with us after 120, but knowledge of American History does not. But you know what else comes with us after 120? Kavod HaBriyos. What about Torah Im Derech Eretz?

When the kids are told that the Limudei Chol isn't as important, they lose respect for those teaching the secular studies. Some schools have teachers who aren't Jewish, and tell them that Goyim don't need our respect, which infuriates me. But, another topic for another day.

They start English classes at about 2:30, or later, depending on the Yeshiva. Considering they've basically been learning Gemorah, which is very mentally intense, since 9:00 a.m., can you blame these kids for not being able to concentrate? When I return from a 3 hour class at college, I can barely read the New York Post! Come on!!

And the fact that so much more time is devoted to the Limudei Kodesh also proves that they put it on the back burner.

Finally, further proof that the Yeshivos are essentially creating their own problem is the fact that some cheat on the Regents for them!! That enrages me beyond belief. They don't want to teach reproduction to 9th graders because sex is taboo and blah blah, so they cheat. Other Regents, too, they don't hold the boys responsible for all the material. Because it's "not important."

So let me get this straight: it's okay to CHEAT, and LIE, because you were learning Torah in the morning? It seems they've learned nothing from Torah if they still feel it's justifiable to cheat.

Teach them about reproduction rather than cheating, which is against the Torah!!

36 Comments:

At 1/05/2007 5:27 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The problems are not as bad as you make them out to be. It's not every school that has discipline issues, and it's not every school that cheats on regents. Let's be fair.

As far as the school that do those things, totally agree that there's no justification. Let the chareidim come on here and defend them.

 
At 1/05/2007 9:35 AM, Blogger Y.Y. said...

gemarah is a billion times more important than lemedia chol get real 3 to 5 pm is party time

 
At 1/05/2007 9:43 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Finally, further proof that the Yeshivos are essentially creating their own problem is the fact that they cheat on the Regents for them!!"

Do you have any proof to back up your "further proof"? When you say that "they" cheat, are you implying that ALL the yeshivos cheat? Or is it a majority of them? Or is it one or two of them?

 
At 1/05/2007 9:54 AM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

True education is dangerous. Students may start thinking differently from the accepted ideology.

 
At 1/05/2007 1:17 PM, Blogger Independent Frum Thinker said...

All I can say is that I attended one of the finest Yeshivas, and there was absolutely no cheating in any way. Reproduction was not taught in class, but most boys studied it on their prior to the Regents Exam. Please don't generalize.

 
At 1/06/2007 3:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To add to the chorus I learnt in two major yesivas and saw never saw or heard of any tolerance for cheating on regents.

 
At 1/06/2007 4:41 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

in my school, we were taught reproduction in great detail. evolution was avoided--it was only worth two questions on the regent anyway, and the time normally spent on evolution was needed to answer our questions on reproduction.

ortho--
do you have a french to fry with gemara? why do you refer to secular learning as "true education?" as much as some yeshivos lack in emphasis on derech eretz, haven't you ever ridden a bus with public and private school students? their behavior is far more offensive than that of a yeshiva student. has "true education" truly made them better people?

 
At 1/07/2007 7:47 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Anon,

"why do you refer to secular learning as "true education?""

I didn't refer to "secular learning" at all. I was talking about the way yeshivot teach. In most cases their intent and method is to ingrain a narrow ideology into their students rather than actually educating them.

A major facet of this ideological education typically consists of putting down data from 'outside the system.'

"as much as some yeshivos lack in emphasis on derech eretz, haven't you ever ridden a bus with public and private school students? their behavior is far more offensive than that of a yeshiva student. has "true education" truly made them better people?"

It honestly depends on the school in question. But this is irrelvant to the point at hand. How do other schools' failures excuse the failures of the yeshiva system?

 
At 1/08/2007 8:13 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Michelle,

Did your school help its students cheat on the regents?

 
At 1/08/2007 10:19 AM, Anonymous Chani said...

Limudei kodesh & limudei chol are not on an equal plane, & they can't be presented as such. Either 1 or the other is going to take a backseat. The fact that limudei kodesh is more important doesn't explain why the boys don't behave during limudei chol classes. I don't understand myself how that happens & can be considered acceptable in some schools. My father went to Philly for high school & he said that the Rosh Yeshiva or someone like that used to sit in on English classes to make sure the boys behaved.
The cheating on regents is a whole other story. Like several other people asked, do you know for a fact that there are schools that help the boys cheat & which schools they are? Everyone says that, but do you know for a fact? BTW, we didn't learn reproduction in bio either & we all managed fine on the regents. We did learn evolution though.

 
At 1/08/2007 10:19 AM, Anonymous Chani said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 1/08/2007 2:12 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Michelle,

You should be embarassed to post that. You sound like the village yentas--totally unsubstantiated. Perhaps one or two yeshivas are like that, but this is far from the norm. What a disgrace!

 
At 1/08/2007 9:06 PM, Blogger Michelle said...

I have a right to voice my opinion, as do all of you. I heard directly from someone that their yeshiva helped them. I don't remember who it was and which Yeshiva. Sorry, but I just have a bad memory! Jeez.

Chani- I respectfully disagree. For the sake of Kavod HaBriyos and preventing chillul Hashem, it's important to show that secular studies have SOME significance.

 
At 1/09/2007 7:36 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Michelle,

You made a statement that it is a "fact that they (the Yeshivos) cheat on the Regents for them". You did not present this as an opinion, but as a fact. You should retract this statement and edit your post. You are being motzi shem ra on all Yeshivos which is a terrible sin.

 
At 1/09/2007 10:33 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Michelle,
Wow.Some guy told you his yeshiva helped them cheat on the regents.I'm telling you that my college helps students cheat on the exams (I happen to mean this).Lets see a post bashing colleges and all the evil influences they give over.

 
At 1/09/2007 11:05 AM, Anonymous dave said...

I'm sorry Michelle, but this is totally irresponsible blogging. Changing it to "some" cheat doesn't kosher it, when your only source is one person accusing one yeshivah. This takes away the whole premise of your argument that yeshivos condone cheating but are against secular education. I say to remove this entire post or rewrite it. I do find your other posts both insightful and enjoyable.

 
At 1/09/2007 2:31 PM, Blogger Michelle said...

Jeez, you people. Do you police other people's blogs, too, or just mine?

I stand by what I said. Some Yeshivos (FEW Yeshivos) cheat. Why should I deny the truth? Or, should I just say that "One Yeshiva for sure" does, but i am unsure of others?

College--I have plenty good and bad to say about college. If y'all really want to hear about it, fine.

 
At 1/09/2007 6:02 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Anon,

"I'm telling you that my college helps students cheat on the exams (I happen to mean this)."

Where do you go to school?

 
At 1/10/2007 8:49 AM, Blogger exsemgirl said...

I agree with yy that gemara is a billion times more important. Yet I remember how often we mucked up our chol teachers and some of which were not even Jewish!!

We got the feeling very clearly that these were not our priority and did what the hell we liked.

Good post-and I fully agree with you.

 
At 1/10/2007 8:52 AM, Blogger BrooklynWolf said...

Well, I can attest that when I went to a very RW yeshiva where limudei chol was a joke, there was, to my knowledge, no cheating on the Regents.

 
At 1/10/2007 9:18 AM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

exsemgirl,

"I agree with yy that gemara is a billion times more important. Yet I remember how often we mucked up our chol teachers and some of which were not even Jewish!!"

You were taught gemara in elementary/high school?

 
At 1/10/2007 9:39 AM, Blogger FRUM_RAID said...

Michelle,
Yeshiva guys not being prepared for college is true. The main reason I find is that some RW yeshiva's don't have 12th grade English classes at all. 12th grade is simply first year in beis medrash. Then the boys spend several years in Beis Medrash exclusively before attending college. After not studying English classes for a number of years it is difficult to remember everything.

The solution is not so easy because
is really is important to have significant time devoted to just learning to grow in ability.

In the yeshiva I attended the school frowned upon cheating but some of the proctors they hired did not care. Had the Yeshiva known that, they would not have used those people as proctors.

In any case, if parents at a highly regarded RW Yeshiva don't care that they let a known molester be a rebbi in their yeshiva for over 20 years why do you expect them to care about english subjects?
FR
frum-raid.blogspot.com

 
At 1/10/2007 9:47 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ortho,
I don't want to give out the name of my school so as not to hurt my reputation upon graduating and possibly give out who I am as I am from the only frum students there.I'm sure the dean won't be thrilled to see I wrote this.All I will say is that the US News And World Reports has us listed as one of the top 25 business schools in the US.

 
At 1/10/2007 10:08 AM, Anonymous Chani said...

I never said that limudei chol has or should have no significance. I just said that limudei kodesh is more important.

 
At 1/10/2007 3:37 PM, Blogger anonym00kie said...

its interesting cuz i went to a scular jewish school and we had the EXACT opposite problem. hebrew/torah classes were party time, we treated the trachers horribly, everyone cheated..
i guess its just a matter of priority..

 
At 1/11/2007 12:50 PM, Blogger Scraps said...

I think I must have gone to one of the only schools where limudei kodesh and limudei chol were held to be of equal importance. Our schedules were mixed around so that there was no even kodesh/chol split along morning/afternoon lines, so a student could easily go from Chumash to geometry to Navi to biology etc. If a student was chutzpadik to either a kodesh OR a chol teacher, that student would be in an equal level of trouble.

 
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