Sunday, December 11, 2005

The Shidduch Crisis

I know that this post will be one of many on this topic that I have long awaited to discuss, but I don't know how many I will write. As you can imagine, I have plenty to say about this as a 20 year old single (GASP!) girl in Brooklyn.

As many of you know, the Letters to the Editor section in the Yated has been ever expanding thanks to this enthralling topic. Some write in believing that they have the ultimate solution. Others write in telling their tales of woe. Others write in that they have reached a certain age, and are happy despite the fact that they are still single.

This week, a young woman wrote in exactly what I have been feeling ever since they deemed this a "Crisis." That it does not make things any better. I have been saying that when they call it a "crisis," they make us single girls feel like, OMG, are we ever gonna get married? And that if G-d forbid, G-d FORBID! we are single by 21, it's just over. It makes you not want to START dating, knowing what hell you're in for. You're involving yourself in a crisis. You are walking into the winds of Hurricane Katrina. When people panic, it is not as easy to think rationally. When you're packing for a trip, and you're nervous and panicking, you're more likely to forget something than when you're calm and chilled out.

However, when discussing this with a friend, she took the other side of the argument and said perhaps it makes people feel better knowing that others share their plight. That can be done without alarming the whole frum population. It feels as though there are sirens blaring, and hearts are racing as each girl ages from 19 to 20, and so on.

Just 1 1/2 years ago when I was first plunked onto the market semi-involuntarily, sure, I was concerned about what's going on in the whole "Shidduch scene," and I understood I was putting myself out there risking rejection-that means that if a guy would turn me down, I can go for months picturing myself married to this guy- so I can be "happy" like my married friends are...blah blah blah. I braced myself for unpleasant experiences. I was aware of the "guy shortage."

I understand this situation is often desperate, but I don't think it should be deemed a "crisis." I consider deadly diseases a Crisis. Those are uncontrollable sicknesses that kill many loved ones, and there has yet to be a cure. That is a crisis, Lo Aleinu.

Why has this become a "Crisis"? Because of image-oriented, um, "people." In every other culture, there's no insane rush to marry off an 18-year-old girl! 18 is young! But now that so many girls have gotten married at such a young age, it has become the norm. So much so that being 21 when you get married is already above average! As for this image thing- people now associate weddings soley with the physicalities of it--sheitels, gowns, halls, glitz, glamor...and once they're married, they realize it's not all fun, games and show all the time. This because many are so young and clueless.

I have met young women my age whose ultimate goals are simply to get married. What comes after that? Another one told my friend that she doesn't walk on 13th avenue now because it's boring. Once she has her baby, (B'sha'a Tova) it will be so much fun because everyone will stop her and look at her baby and tell her how cute s/he is. Whoa. This kid must live quite the meaningful life. I remember when this kid met her Choson, the first thing she told me about him was how much money he had, then she described how much fun the date was, and all the "expensive" places he took her.

Anyway, by calling it a crisis, it just makes everyone feel so much worse about it. Why not accept it as a reality of life and try to deal with it step by step? It's a hard time. It's a difficult situation that definitely needs help. So contribute to the solution. Daven. Set people up. But a crisis? Leave that to hurricanes and terror attacks, Lo Aleinu.

225 Comments:

At 12/11/2005 1:17 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

The "crisis" is part and parcel of the whole effort to keep girls from engaging in serious business and academic pursuits. If the girl's goal in life is to get married, then she won't even think about getting any advanced degrees and there's definitely no time to do anything substantial if there's a baby on the way the following year.

Getting girls married when they're still young and dependent is a perfect method for subjugating women. It's that simple.

 
At 12/11/2005 1:54 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can see where you go with that. I guess they want them to remain sheltered and not be in touch with the real corporate world, etc. But what about the non-Yeshivish community? (Not the MO, but the in between)

 
At 12/11/2005 2:16 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Anon,

For the in-between it's more of a social identity element than an effort in social control, though it still retains some of that aspect as well.

If the in-between wants to identify as more "black hat" then generally the girls will be getting married younger. But, of course, in all such type bridging movements, it's hard to define and to talk about specifically.

You could ask why they do not identify with either of the larger movements and that could explain a lot about how they act in the rest of their lives.

 
At 12/11/2005 4:42 PM, Blogger Frum Singles said...

I have a great Shidduch for you!


This happens to me all the time. Someone will come over to me and "red" me "great" "attractive" girl etc. I think you get the drift. When I ask if (s)he has seen the girl (or a picture of her) the inevitible response is no.

Now frankly, this is arguably chutzpa and at a minimum a total lack of consideration. Basically, what I am being asked is to gamble my emotions, energy, time (and some money) so that this person may be a "winner" and be able to say that (s)he made a shiduch (and then get a brokerage fee a/k/a "shadchanuus") to boot.

If you you don't know how to cook, you don't belong in the kitchen. If you're not a doctor, you shouldn't have a medical office. If you're not a lawyer, you shouldn't hang out a shingle. AND IF YOU ARE NOT A SHADCHAN, DON"T ACT AS ONE !!!!

 
At 12/11/2005 5:50 PM, Blogger Josh said...

I disagree with Oprax. There's no conspiracy. There's just a bunch of people with a short-sighted mentality. If you're marrying for money, you better grab 'em while you get the chance. This is true in every community from MO to Chassidich. Like a post-Thanksgiving sale, people fight over this seasons hottest toy. It's more a sign of the superficiality that has sunk in to the community than an unsuccessful dating market. And this is the real crisis.

 
At 12/11/2005 5:58 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Josh,

People aren't marrying for money. They're marrying for the sake of being married. So many Bais Yaakov girls have it drilled into their heads for 12 years that they aren't complete unless they have a husband.

So then right out of highschool they start dating and try to get a guy before they get old enough to make wise decisions.

 
At 12/11/2005 8:41 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

As far as I'm aware it gets harder to find someone compatable to marry as a person ages. The younger the two people are, as long as they are seriously committed to the institution of marriage and feel love for each other, make a much more fulfilling marriage than dating around for a few years. If it would be possible to find the right one earlier it would put the marriage in a better position. Girls can go to school after they are married and have kids. They are not contradictory. It depends on the effort a girl is willing to put in to her priorities. A girl who is ambitious would be able to marry AND go to school. A girl who is not as ambitious and is a bit lazy can wait until she decides she is ready to accept responsibility. Age doesn't play a part in the "crisis", lazyness does. (As goes for a lazy boy sitting in Yeshiva).

 
At 12/11/2005 8:45 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Anon,

"Girls can go to school after they are married and have kids. They are not contradictory."

Not technically, but people are far less likely to return to school after a 20 year hiatus.

 
At 12/11/2005 10:28 PM, Blogger Passionate Life said...

Its ridicules to call 20 or 22 year olds who are still single a crisis. However, what is a crisis is the whole shidduch scene and the breakdown of who can marry who based on labels, social status, and family background among many other factors that are tearing apart our achdus and oneness as a people.

The true crisis is the more mature singles population as they reach their mid-thirties, particularly for women. That is truly a CRISIS. There is much suffering among older singles and their parents, friends, and relatives who care deeply about them.

The term crisis is not meant to put pressure on singles. Rather it is meant to put pressure on the community to get more involved in innovative ways of making shidduchim. Certainly to remove any stigma amongst the more insular about online dating or singles events.

We need more methods of connecting singles, not small minded faux frumkeit that hurts singles and our future generations. That my friend is the true crisis.

 
At 12/12/2005 6:06 AM, Anonymous Mo said...

I think ultimately the use of the term "crisis" is used by the Yated and other publications to let the older singles know that their plight is taken seriously.

Does calling it a crisis make them feel any better? I don't know. After all, the only thing that will make them feel better is finding their zivug.

-- But, considering the severity of the situation, I have no problem with the connotation "crisis", either. We see in the past few Torah readings how much our matriarchs wanted children. Just last week, Rachel said, "if I don't have children, I am dead."

For better or for worse, one of the goals of every Jewish person is to find his/her bashert. And every person who has been suffering for years struggling to find their better half is truly a tragedy.

And therefore, yes Michelle, any time a substantial segment of Jewish people are suffering tremendous pain is grounds for a "crisis." It doesn't have to be physical pain, or a military threat, or whatever. Sometimes emotional pain can be pretty bad, too.

 
At 12/12/2005 6:14 AM, Blogger Semgirl said...

I couldn't agree with you more. And many girls cause their own problems. Many girls I know, work somewhere they hate, for loust pay, and bad hours for the "exposure" they wouldn't get in a more lucrative place. Then they eat, sleep, breathe Shidduchim.. PULEEEZE..

Michelle, what is your take on the suggestion to put the girls in the "freezer" till 20, to readjust the Supply/Demand curve..

 
At 12/12/2005 9:17 AM, Blogger A Frum Idealist said...

Unfortunately I know of too many situations where girls, pressured by a parent or society into thinking that they were old maids at 22, ended up marrying a guy that cuased them and their parents nothing but heartache and grief.
Boruch Hashem I am married, and perhaps therefore it's easy for me to say, but I think each person needs to do his or her own hishtadlus, and when the time is right, it will happen. Pressure won't help the matter.

 
At 12/12/2005 9:57 AM, Anonymous Nathan Jacob said...

The fact that there are singles who will likely never get married is a crisis, but in many cases, the girls themselves (and the guys) are to blame.

Why? Because they don't do enough hishtadlus. Yeah, the fact that they're picky is an old story, but the non-picky ones?

If you're 24 or 25 and single, you better do more than just sit around waiting to get rett. This means singles events, frumster, future simchas, saw you at Sinai, and calling people and asking them if they have a shidduch for you.

Yes, I know you might think it's humiliating, but people looking for jobs are told to network all the time, so why is this any different? Sometimes people forget about you, and by reminding them that you're still looking, they might start thinking and coming up with ideas. Also, many high school teachers and principals dabble in shidduchim, and they obviously know a lot of guys/girls, so they're a good source as any.

And I know professional shadchanim have a reputation of giving you leftover garbage, but unless the info is rotten, it's probably worth a try, and that's where the pickiness factor comes in. Give guys/girls a chance. Go out once. If it's no good, it's no good. But don't be so quick to say no before you even go out.

Here's a novel idea. Suppose you're a single girl. Your mom has a friend with a single daughter. Have them go through the list of all the guys both girls have dated. Maybe a guy who went out with Girl A is good for Girl B.

And as mentioned before, ask around. I know I would respect a girl who asked me if I knew anyone for her - I wouldn't mock her. Anyone who would make fun is a prick.

And singles, always appreciate the efforts of anyone who tries to set you up. Even if it's no good, or a disaster, don't give the matchmaker attitude, because not only will the shadchan never set you up again, he or she will be reluctant to set anyone up in the future.

Thank you.

 
At 12/12/2005 11:51 AM, Blogger Elster said...

Michelle:

Your post is dead on. But not for the age group that you wrote about. There IS a shidduch crisis - but for this Yated or any other people to be railing about 20 year old girls and guys not being married is ludicrous. Not when there are thousands of orthodox jewish singles in their 30's and 40's who are single. That, my friends, is the real "Crisis".


This is my personla view, but I find it ridiculous when a 20 year old girl is in a state of depression because she's still single. As far as I'm concerned, 20 is probably too young to get married anyway. But to call it a crisis? That
s crazy.

So kudos to your post. I actually think you understand that there is a real crisis going on but it's not fopr your age group. Perhaps commenters here need to review Nicejewishgirl's blog to understand what REAL suffering is.

 
At 12/12/2005 4:25 PM, Blogger Me said...

You have a really sensible perspective on the whole issue. It's not a crisis - it may be an issue for those concerned enough, but not everyone. I think that people choose to become hysterically worked up about nonsense such as the shidduch system when there's nothing else to think about. Go learn or something instead, right?!
My parents started suggesting shidduchim for me when I was 17. I wasn't interested that young - eventually, when I was 19 I dated a few guys, who were totally inappropriately suggested to me. Seems people will suggest anyone as long as they're of the opposite sex.
Anyway, I eventually met my husband at a friend's wedding when I was 21. A lot of my friends were already married at that stage, but it was finally right for me then. If I had been introduced to him 6 months earlier (or a year, or 18 months etc) it wouldn't have worked. It's all about the timing, and time can't be rushed...

 
At 12/13/2005 3:08 AM, Blogger Pragmatician said...

How shallow to "want" a baby just to show him off on 13th avenue.
Poor kids, nowadays many see their parents only in company of others, when they are a tool to show off(in designer clothes!) , the rest of the times they are with baby sitters, grandmas and playgroups.

 
At 12/13/2005 7:17 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

re last comment: How about a little bit of thinking positive?

 
At 12/13/2005 11:48 AM, Blogger Michelle said...

I apologize for not clarifying, that I do believe a single woman (not "girl!") over 30 is deemed a crisis for good reason.

Keep up the great discussion!

 
At 12/13/2005 2:35 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

your communty has an unhealthy obessssion with seperation of the sexes and almost equally obesessed with making "shiduchim". I have a simple solution to the perceived "shidduch crisis" (let boys meet girls) take down the barriers & let young hearts blossom the way they should.

 
At 12/13/2005 4:34 PM, Blogger nuboy21 said...

The whole "crisis" is a marketing ploy designed to sell newspapers and try to get more people involved, they clearly have no idea what the word crisis means. I do agree with you as to the world changed and girls getting married younger is part of the promblem. When i was in camp and my counsler was single and 2 we all told him "ah so you are starting now".Now at 21, my freinds are having babies! Im not even thinking about marriege! Back to your point, while it is true that people are getting married at a much younger age,i dont think they crossed an invisible maturity thrshold thats causing a lot of the problems

 
At 12/13/2005 5:37 PM, Blogger Michelle said...

To the anonymous who suggested taking down the barriers--I have mixed emotions about that, because there are different types of people. Some girls would benefit because right now, they are 18-19 years old, and talking to boys is foreign. On the other hand, I like the separation that we have now--it keeps people safe from negiah and premarital sex. Although there still is a lot of it out there, I think the separations make it slightly less common.

 
At 12/13/2005 9:16 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

"I think the separations make it slightly less common."

That's debatable. But on the other side you have thousands of maladjusted kids who have no real idea of how to properly interact with the opposite sex.

A little negiah leaves a lifetime of good mental health.

 
At 12/13/2005 9:28 PM, Blogger Lost said...

Yes! you finally wrote about the nonexistant crisis. S/o else blogged about this recently, not coming to me exactly who.. but glad its being addressed. Two issues youre bringing forth. 1) the psuedo-crisis 2)shallow girls looking for the wrong things in shidduchim.

Isn't the latter the crisis? Just a thought. Maybe its a crisis that there are so many divorces happening betw. young married couples. Maybe its a crisis that people judge families on money, stature in the comm, and how they clear their tables @ dinner.

Everyone shd find their guy/girl w/ g0ds help in good time.... dunno where the solution lies.

 
At 12/16/2005 6:32 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Time for the next topic.....

 
At 12/16/2005 7:41 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

yep, time for the next post

 
At 12/17/2005 2:39 PM, Anonymous FRANK said...

I am,what they call, a child of the 60's. We (friends boys & girls) to yeshivot, hung out in the pizza shop, went ice skating thrusday nights, loitered in the same park every shabbos and when we got older spent our summers in castskill hotels & bungalow colonies. And do you know what happened there? don't say this to loud but shiduchim were made. We are grandparents today, have successful businesses, own summer homes, and support our shuls and moisdois,WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT, I'D LIKE TO KNOW, SO HERE I GO AGAIN....this young generation has got it all "assbackwards"

 
At 12/17/2005 2:41 PM, Blogger Michelle said...

I don't understand. I leave a post for 5 days, and get a mere 24 comments on it, and people are asking for another topic. Yet other bloggers leave a post up for months, receieve over 200 comments, and are "welcomed back to Blogville!" Can someone please explain this to me?

 
At 12/17/2005 4:43 PM, Anonymous An ex-blogger said...

Michelle, take this from a former blogger: blogging is not about comments. It's about having a chance to express yourself and speak your mind.

Besides, most of the blogs that get tons of comments are about pure trash. If you want to blog about your innermost sexual desires, you might get comments up the wazoo. There are ways to get tons of comments, ways you'd probably not want to explore.

But do yourself and do us a favor, Michelle: I don't care if you never get a comment again, just keep doing the great job you're doing and DON'T SELL OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
At 12/17/2005 8:33 PM, Blogger Semgirl said...

Aw.. Dont be jealous of Elisheva, we all love you Michelle..

 
At 12/18/2005 7:03 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ah, Michelle. It's incredible how right you are. If only all our young men and women had your attitude, we wouldn't have this so called shidduch "crisis" at all. The frum world must realize that work is need to impart the true values of marriage to young people, not some Hollywood farce. I waited till I was older than most in my yeshiva to start dating, and I feel my marriage is so much the better for it. We can only hope that effort is made by those who have their heads on straight to educate people. I commend you, Michelle, for doing your part.

 
At 12/19/2005 6:44 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well-if you all think that only the older singles constitute a crisis-how about this: if you only focus on the older singles, the younger singles will soon turn into older singles! fix the problem with the younger singles so they won't become older singles!!

 
At 12/19/2005 12:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is nothing wrong with trying to make shidduchim for the "younger singles" as well. However, I believe Michelle's point was well made. I believe she feels that many young people are thrust into marriage too early because of the craze to get married young. I agree. Many kids who are 18-21 are simply not ready for marriage, which is not all fun and games. The chassunah is a lot of fun, but then you have to dal with reality. Reality means paying rent, paying bills, and taking care of babies. I fear that many youngsters in our Jewish world are not ready for thse responsibilities. Witness the higher divorce rate we have now.
As a former yeshiva student before and after I was married, I've also witnessed a disturbing trend in which young couples rely far too heavily on their parents/in-laws for all kinds of support, be it financial, with Shabbos meals, watching kids, and what have you. There is nothing wrong with getting some help from your parents. But too much help can actually be a hindrance because it does not let young couples take the responsibility for themselves, and they grow up as a couple in a culture of relying on others for everything. This is not a way to build a good marriage. Now, I'm certainly not saying everyone is like this. But there is certainly a trend toward what I am describing. People must know themselves before they get married, and have some clue what marriage is. I pray that the rabbonim, mechanchim, shadchanim, and whoever try to adopt a different approach that doesn't make young people want to get married, NOW, at all costs. And if they don't adopt a different approach, please all you young people: Adopt your own new approach, for your sake and your marriage's.

 
At 12/19/2005 12:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry-just to clear up any confusion. I didn't mean to say "before and after I was married" to imply that I am no longer married. I meant "before and after I got married."

 
At 12/20/2005 2:57 PM, Blogger Michelle said...

Thanks, y'all.
Now the reason I have not been writing is not because I am jealous of others because of their comments. It's because I am massively swamped with school work.

I have a piece ready actually, but I am prepared for the attack. Ah, what the heck. You'll see it up soon.

 
At 12/20/2005 3:04 PM, Blogger Michelle said...

Oh! And I forgot one thing--the comment button hasn't been working well, but this has been on my mind since the comment was posted about Negiah.

As for the one who said that a little Negiah is good for someone's "mental health," I staunchly disagree. (does that make sense? I don't know,-- but I adamently, strongly, and firmly disagree.) If Negiah is against Halacha, it is for a reason, and for our own good. So if you think that it's good for someone's mental health, maybe so, but it probably is NOT in the long run, since we are commanded NOT to do so. It is most definitely not good for Olam Habah, which is more important than Mental Health.

Nobody ever died from not touching someone. Actually, in Seminary we watched a video of a speech, and a Rav told a story about someone who was going to die, and begged to touch a woman that he so desired, and that would heal him. They told him, "die." That is what a big issur it is. So there you have it, my stand on Negiah--altough maybe I should make a post out of it!

 
At 12/20/2005 3:35 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Michelle,

"If Negiah is against Halacha, it is for a reason, and for our own good. So if you think that it's good for someone's mental health, maybe so, but it probably is NOT in the long run, since we are commanded NOT to do so."

Yeah, and we've also been commanded not to mix wool and flax in our clothing. I haven't heard that ever hurting anyone. But even if you believe it is a divine command, the negiah ordered by the rabbis is an obviously over the top gezeirah.

"It is most definitely not good for Olam Habah, which is more important than Mental Health."

If you say so... But we come from very different perspectives.

"They told him, "die." That is what a big issur it is."

That's a common story told regarding actual sex. Negiah doesn't count. You know the big three mitzvot that do.

 
At 12/20/2005 5:02 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Over the top gezeirah", eh, Orthoprax? So you pick and choose which gezeiros are over the top, and those ones you don't have to keep? Maybe peek in a Shulchan Aruch Even Haezer once in awhile. It might surprise you to find out what is halacha and what is gezeira. But I guess if halacha is "over the top" you don't follow that either.

 
At 12/20/2005 6:26 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Anon,

You are preaching to the wrong crowd.

 
At 12/20/2005 7:07 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

First off, I wasn't preaching. Your posts happen to be so inane that I can't help myself. You're too much fun to poke holes through. You probably think I'm some Bible wielding, mussar dispensing, Kollel guy. Actually, nothing could be further from the truth. I deplore those that feel it's their duty to rebuke everyone in site. But you need to realize that you can't just go around picking and choosing what gezeiros are over the top and therefore you shouldn't follow them. Also, try not to blur what is a halacha and what is a gezeira. If you don't want to keep certain halachos, fine. Who am I to tell you what to do? But please don't insult all of our intelligences with your infantile rationalizations. All you want to do is scoff at every halacha you don't want to follow and declare them "over the top."

 
At 12/20/2005 9:15 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Anon,

"First off, I wasn't preaching. Your posts happen to be so inane that I can't help myself."

Inane, huh? How so?

"But you need to realize that you can't just go around picking and choosing what gezeiros are over the top and therefore you shouldn't follow them."

Why not?

"Also, try not to blur what is a halacha and what is a gezeira."

Yes, all gezeiros are halachos, to an extent, depending on by whom they were made and when they were made. The distinction _is_ blurry.

"But please don't insult all of our intelligences with your infantile rationalizations."

I'm not insulting your intelligences, I'm insulting your fundamentalist views where if a rabbi writes it in a book it is then ipso facto commanded by God. People write books and people can be wrong. Rabbis are people too.

"All you want to do is scoff at every halacha you don't want to follow and declare them "over the top."

Not quite. What I myself happen to practice is inconsequential. What I scoff at is a blind acceptance of these laws without understanding the reasons behind them and then not being able to judge them on your own terms.

The logic that "it was commanded therefore it _must_ be for our good" is truly myopic. Times change, circumstances change, practices change. Shaking a woman's hand (negiah) is not an act which one ought to die for.

 
At 12/21/2005 5:17 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

First off, not everything you write is inane. Certain things are, like a little negiah is good for your mental health. Quite the opposite is true, I'm afraid. Now-knowing how to speak to a woman and having some social contact with them-that could be good for one's mental health. To your second point. If by gezeiros that are over the top you mean the Lakewood ban on Internet, fine. That and things like that you don't have to follow. However, anything written in the Shulchan Aruch is binding, if you consider yourself an Orthodox Jew. If you don't, so fine. That's a whole different story. If you want to throw off the yoke of Halacha no problem, but don't act like you're frum and you can just pick and choose. Our religion doesn't work that way. We all have weak moments where we violate halacha. I know I do at least. But it's wrong to then justify it by saying that halacha doesn't apply. Yes rabbis can be wrong, but if you accept G-d there are some things said by rabbis that you must accept. There's a commandment in the Torah about this called "loh sasur." I don't accept every ban that rabbis come out with nowadays (and there are many). But do you mean to contest the validity of people like the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch? My "fundamentalist" views are that we should view the Shulchan Aruch as binding. Do I mess up and do aveiros? Sometimes. I'm human. But I admit that halacha is binding. And by the way, shaking a woman's hand is a totlaly different question than touching a woman in a deliberate, affectionate way. Many people hold it is okay to shake hands for business purposes or so a woman who doesn't understand the halacha won't be offended. I think the negiah that was being discussed on this blog was of a different type that no halachic authority would allow. Keep your chin up, Orthoprax. I'm just trying to make you think.

 
At 12/21/2005 12:45 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Anon,

"Certain things are, like a little negiah is good for your mental health. Quite the opposite is true, I'm afraid."

I wasn't referring to a point where you should go dry hump your girlfriend. I was making a point to where you can shake a girl's hand, even (oh no!) hold hands. Where you can give your aunt a hug or your sister a kiss. Harmless practices so that a cloistered yeshivah boy can look at girls as actual people and not some strange otherwordly creatures so that they can hardly speak in their presence or stand to look at their face when they're walking down the street.

"If by gezeiros that are over the top you mean the Lakewood ban on Internet, fine. That and things like that you don't have to follow."

What happened to lo sasur? You're the one picking and choosing based on what? When the gezeiros where written and what books they're found in. My qualifications are based on the good sense and the valid goals of what each gezeirah is trying to accomplish.

A gezeirah could be made by some "godol" in Boro Park yesterday or by the Rambam 900 years ago, but if it is wrong then it is wrong. The Rambam or R' Karo, no matter how well versed and erudite they were, were still just human beings. And as human beings they were fully capable of being wrong. And even if they were right on the money in their own times, times change. The world is not how it was in the 12th or 16th century.

In my view it is foolish to not review and revisit the rulings made hundreds of years ago to see if they could use some improvement. Why is it that a "torah scholar" nowadays consists of just an individual who can memorize the law? I want to see some classic halachic theorists abound so that they can say that they actually _understand_ the law.

"However, anything written in the Shulchan Aruch is binding, if you consider yourself an Orthodox Jew."

Ah, a perfect tautology. Therefore if one doesn't consider something in the Shulchan Aruch as binding then they are automatically unorthodox and not worth listening to. Perfect. But that definition of "Orthodox" doesn't bother me.

"Keep your chin up, Orthoprax. I'm just trying to make you think."

On the contrary, I was a yeshivah boy myself and I know your way of thinking through and through. I'm the one showing you something new here.

You might consider reading my blog and visiting the blogs I link to. That might really give you something to think about.

 
At 12/21/2005 1:52 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

On your first point, fine. It didn't seem that negiah with one's relatives was what you were referring to. If that's your position, okay. Nothing too terrible there. I know I left myself open to criticism on the Lakewood point. But I still feel that there's a difference between the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch and today's rabbis who go around banning everything in site. As for your comments about the world changing, you're veering dangerously toward what Reform says, that halacha should change with the times. I said nothing about one not being worth listening to if he is not Orthodox.Nothing could be further than the truth. However, if one says "This part of halacha is not binding today," I don't believe he is an observant Jew. He still has worth as a person and we should not distance ourselves from him. His opinions might be worthwhile. Interesting that you know my way of thinking through and through. I'm not some yeshiva boy from Brooklyn or kollel guy in Lakewood. I grew up in a modern community, went to a coed high school, and now I'm in graduate school. I'll check out your blogs but I don't expect any stunning revelations. I haven't spent my whole life in the bais midrash, so I think you're a little confused about where I'm coming from. You haven't taught me anything new.

 
At 12/21/2005 3:00 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Anon,

"It didn't seem that negiah with one's relatives was what you were referring to. If that's your position, okay. Nothing too terrible there."

What's the difference? That's in the Shulchan Aruch too. You give your cousin a hug and R' Karo would kick your butt. It looks like you do the same exact thing I do, but pretend that you don't.

"But I still feel that there's a difference between the Rambam and Shulchan Aruch and today's rabbis who go around banning everything in site."

Primarily the difference is time, but then there's also the fact that the Rambam and R' Karo were clearly superior scholars. But, nevertheless, they are still only human.

"As for your comments about the world changing, you're veering dangerously toward what Reform says, that halacha should change with the times."

Actually, that's Conservative. Reform says that halacha has no necessary bearing on Jewish life at all. Traditionally though, Halacha _did_ change with the times. You think the idea of a pruzbul was around forever? And gezeirot are obviously additions to the law - that is their stated purpose.

"However, if one says "This part of halacha is not binding today," I don't believe he is an observant Jew."

Why not? If he observes the rest of normative halachah then he is observant. Or, at the least, he's just as observant as someone who does see the law as binding but doesn't follow it.

The way you define distinctions is arbitrary since if the person who says that this law is not binding then for him it is no longer part of required halachah. You, however, disagree with him and say that it is part of Halacha. But at the end of the day, all you have is a machloket. Essentially, you've put yourself as the one who decides what is an acceptable deviation from halacha and what is not - same as him.

So you depend on authorities to bolster your view. You look to the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch, yet these authorities are only but human and have the capacity for error too. You have but a machloket.

"I haven't spent my whole life in the bais midrash, so I think you're a little confused about where I'm coming from. You haven't taught me anything new."

I know that you're a halachic fundamentalist, or at least that you claimed to be. I may not be showing you anything you haven't heard of before, but I'm presenting it in a way you've likely never encountered.

 
At 12/21/2005 6:53 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

First things first, Orthoprax. I never claimed to be a funamentalist. I simply used the term in jest, in quote marks, because you called me a funamentalist in one of your posts. Check back on our dialogue to verify. About the negiah discussion: It's now clear to me that I have no idea who you are referring to when you discuss negiah. Therefore, no debate can be had because you change who're discussing on every post. So I'm leaving that discussion. I'm sorry that I'm not so up on the diffeence in the doctrines of Reform and Conservative. Fine, you're veering dangerously toward Conservative. Pruzbul was set up by Hillel. I think I'll accept his modifications of halacha a little more readily than I'll accept yours. There is a huge difference between someone who says "This halacha is not binding" and someone who says "This halacha is binding, but I will not follow it because my desire to violate iit is too great." The former rebels against G-d while the latter admits that G-d is authoratative but his desires overcome him. Please tell me you can see the difference. Yes, if a person says a halacha does not apply to him it is not binding for him. But halacha is OBJECTIVE, not subjective. He may choose not to follow it, but that does not change the fact that objectively, it binds him. I repeat myself: You cna't pick and choose. Yes, I have seen your way. It's the way of those that justify what they do. If you don't want to follow halacha, fine. I have no problem with you. But stop cloaking it with illogical ideas. You're just going to tell me the same things over and over, so I have no desire to debate this further, although it's been fun.

 
At 12/21/2005 8:02 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Anon,

"About the negiah discussion: It's now clear to me that I have no idea who you are referring to when you discuss negiah. Therefore, no debate can be had because you change who're discussing on every post."

"Negiah" is any form of touching which is frowned upon by traditional Halachic sources. That includes hugging your cousin or kissing your sister or dry humping your girlfriend. I gave you numerous examples. The specifics are not the issue.

What is the issue is that somehow you are able to come up with your own idea of "nothing too terrible there" without directly consulting and following the rules set in the Shulchan Aruch. How can that possibly be without you judging the rules on your own terms?

"Pruzbul was set up by Hillel. I think I'll accept his modifications of halacha a little more readily than I'll accept yours"

The point is though that Halacha changes with time. You agree with me then. Whether you consider me a valid authority to change halacha is a different matter and largely irrelevant.

"There is a huge difference between someone who says "This halacha is not binding" and someone who says "This halacha is binding, but I will not follow it because my desire to violate iit is too great.""

There is a difference, yes, but both of them are equally _observant._ Observancy was the issue in question, not the metaphysical conceptions behind it.

"The former rebels against G-d while the latter admits that G-d is authoratative but his desires overcome him."

He rebels against a halacha he believes is incorrect. God really has little to do with it. The other submits himself to recognizing the authority of long-dead rabbinic authorities. Get it?

"But halacha is OBJECTIVE, not subjective."

Says who? ;-) How can there possibly be machlokets then? Who holds this objective standard?

"I repeat myself: You cna't pick and choose."

And again, I ask why not? You have yet to prove your case that your Halachic standard is the objective one.

"Yes, I have seen your way. It's the way of those that justify what they do. If you don't want to follow halacha, fine. I have no problem with you. But stop cloaking it with illogical ideas."

I have no need to justify anything I do. It bothers me not to act in ways that may be not halachically approved. My discussion here is of a more philosophical tone where it has become apparent to me that following Halacha, any form of Halacha, is largely a personal standard of either oneself or of one's authority.

This is hardly illogical. You just don't like that conclusion.

 
At 12/22/2005 8:44 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

No, I don't get it. And I think this discussion will not get anywhere, so I'm not debating your points anymore.

 
At 12/22/2005 11:04 AM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Anon,

You don't get it because although you later claimed otherwise, you are surely a Halachic fundamentalist who assumes that if the Rambam or R' Karo or any other rabbi you happen to agree with writes it in a book it is then automatically the same as if God himself wrote it. That's why you equate rebellion against a rabbi's dictum the same as rebelling against God.

Open your mind. They're just men.

 
At 12/22/2005 11:05 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

My mind's wide open, buddy. It's yours that, tragically, is shut.

 
At 12/22/2005 11:11 AM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Anon,

Then I question why you wish to discontinue this discussion. If your mind is open then you would not mind a challenge to your dogmatic beliefs. All I offer is a challenge.

 
At 12/22/2005 11:25 AM, Anonymous Nathan Jacobs said...

All right, you two, enough. You both made your points, and you're just going around in circles. Why not just agree to disagree, and forget about it? Meanwhile, Michelle could move on, please. We've been sitting on this topic for over a week now.

 
At 12/22/2005 12:20 PM, Blogger David_on_the_Lake said...

Oh my the cacophony here is mind numbing.

I'm extremely unqualified to weigh in on the crisis whether it exists or not. From my own experience..I think if we start plotting our own futures and lives things would be alot better.
People tend to micro-manage their lives and have visions of themselves in 10 20 30 years. This form of analysis fuels alot of these problems.

 
At 12/22/2005 12:36 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Nathan,

Is Michelle held up because of this protracted discussion? It's her blog, certainly. She's free to post a new topic as it pleases her.

Though I suspect she might find our discussion here interesting.

 
At 12/22/2005 12:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

My dear friend Orthoprax,
My reasons for wanting to discontinue this discussion are nicely stated by Nathan Jacobs. We're just reiterating the same points over and over, so I don't feel like wasting my energy on this. Your challenges are fine and while I seem to not have convinced you, I'm comfortable with the way I see things. Perhaps we can have another discussion in the near future, I've got to get around to giving myself a blogger name. Looking forward to future dialogue.

 
At 12/22/2005 12:55 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Anon,

Fair enough. I'm not going to push you if you're not interested. Though I do think this is a subject worth discussing. How are we to assess the use and purpose of Halacha if we don't understand its true nature?

 
At 12/22/2005 1:19 PM, Blogger David_on_the_Lake said...

Oh well. I tried getting the comments back on track..

 
At 12/25/2005 8:29 PM, Blogger Yael said...

Orthoprax, I see your point. We are all talking about Halacha being absolute, and none of us are offering any proofs for why we believe this. This blog, however, is published by someone who believes that Halacha is absolute, and from what I've read from it, it seems to be aimed towards an audience who believes the same thing. I do not believe that the aim of this blog is to convince people to come to the Ultra-Orthodox way of thinking. This blog seems to be geared for Orthodox people who would like to discuss current cultural and social issues and not have to defend tenets of our faith. Most of us spend enough time hearing how our views are old-fashioned and fundamentalist, and we do not come to this blog to deal with more of the same. So if we are not explaining our reasoning adequately, please don't think that we're just following our faith blindly. It's something that we have come to believe and accept, and it all traces back to whether or not you feel that the rabbis of earlier centuries were writing with Divine Inspiration or not. You do not seem to accept this, but most of us do. Let's accept our differences.

 
At 12/25/2005 11:34 PM, Blogger Orthoprax said...

Yael,

No offense to you, and I mean that truly, but I do believe that most of you here do follow your faith blindly. I further suspect that most of you spend almost no time being blankly approached by someone who asks simple questions for why you do what you do and why you believe what you believe.

What I've done here is offer a challenge. A challenge which can end with a further appeciation of your faith by which you find good, rational arguments which support it. Or it can end with a further appreciation of reality where your faith is seen for what it truly is. All I propose is that you question yourselves.

I'm not offering any answers. I'm not telling you where you'll end up. All I'm offering is an opportunity for you to know thyself.

 
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At 2/06/2006 10:01 AM, Anonymous Chani said...

Orthoprax, there's a major principle in Judaism that I think you're missing. It's called emunas chachamim. That means that we believe that our rabbanim are guided by G-d & we have to follow them. Yes, they are human beings who make mistakes, but who are you to accuse someone like the Rambam of making a mistake? If you don't listen to rabbanim, then you're going with "just" the Torah, which is what the Tzedokim did.
Also, I disagree with whomever it was who said that suggesting shidduchim should be left to official shadchanim. I know of several couples who met because their friends, sometimes married & sometimes even single, set them up with people they knew. If every married couple tries to think if any of their friends are compatible, and every single person tries to set people up with people they went out with, I think we wouldn't have such a "crisis" on our hands.

 
At 10/29/2007 9:02 AM, Blogger Amy said...

I'm working on an article about the increasing importance of Shidduch in the Jewish Orthodox community and would love to speak with someone who has gotten married or who is in the process of seeking a mate through matchmaking. I've already spoken to matchmakers, program directors, etc. but want to hear from young couples/singles themselves.

I'd love to hear from you!
Shidduch.Journalist@gmail.com

 
At 4/01/2009 10:54 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Orthoprax,
A friend of mine guided me to your discussion with anonymous regarding the objectiveness of Jewish jurisprudence. Although i am not a qualified expert in this field i have spent countless hours contemplating this topic. I would greatly appreciate if you would clearly outline your point of view so i can respond appropriately. This would help me greatly in gaining clarity in this matter. Thank You.

 
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