Guys Should Wear Them Too
A woman's marital status is generally pretty easy to detect. In Brooklyn, it's is she wearing a sheitel? Is she wearing a ring? Does she have a child?A man's, however, remains a mystery.
In the age of the "Shidduch crisis," I think that must change. I can think of two frum guys my age who wear marriage bands. The Yeshivish think that's a goyish thing. They'd probably ask why I'm even looking!
But I think it's smart. Say you meet someone, under kosher circumstances, but don't want to come on too strong. If you ask, "are you married?" you've just given yourself away. If you subtly glance at their left hand, you'll know where you stand.
At a recent wedding, I sat with a very Tzniusdik single woman. She glanced toward the men across the aisle before the Chupah began. "There are some cute guys here," she pointed out. She suggested that the guys wear something on their lapels saying that they're married. I didn't mind her saying it since she's not the slutty type in the least bit.
I did point out that she's judging the guys based solely on their looks. "Well, at least you have that part settled, once you get some information, you can decide if it's worth anything, but you don't want to waste time noticing married men." I see where she's going, but I'd get kinda mad if guys did the same for girls.
It gets complicated though. You don't approach them directly. You have to find someone who might know them, and you might find quickly that they don't meet your standards, or simply aren't compatible...despite that, it's worth it.
I think marriage bands, or a less controversial symbol of marriage should be acceptable.
posted by Michelle @ 9:19 PM
18 Comments:
Wow, where do I begin?
Your whole post makes no sense. You seem to want to change the way things are done, yet you accept some of the "given" that are retarded without thought to changing them.
For instance, to get yeshiva guys to wear rings is radical. Yet to start chatting with a guy, done all the time in MO circles, is no good. Hello?
You lament the idea that the girl is judging a guy by his looks. Yet in the yeshivish world, when you can't meet a guy on your own to discover that you have like personalities and that perhaps his looks can grow on you, looks are a thousand times more important because you're thrown into the date!
Getting a guy to wear a ring is a band-aid solution to a much greater problem that just gets shrugged off.
"I did point out that she's judging the guys based solely on their looks. "Well, at least you have that part settled, once you get some information, you can decide if it's worth anything, but you don't want to waste time noticing married men." I see where she's going, but I'd get kinda mad if guys did the same for girls."
- Nothing wrong with a guy judging a girl based on looks, or vice versa. Most people aren't judging solely on looks, they're just checking for one very important pre-requisite: that they're attracted to the girl. And if they see it's not shayich, then good for them. Many guys will check out the looks first (after all, that the first thing that's apparent to them), and that's just how they're wired, except for the likes of Larry Craig and Jim McGreevey. And I don't think you want a guy like that.
If I remember R' Aryeh Kaplan's Made in Heaven correctly, exchanging bands could be problematic, because the ring (the generally accepted "shaveh prutah" article) represents kinyan. But he says mentions that post-ceremony it's not such an issue. And in the secular business world, it's a very smart symbol. As for our circles, you may want to just check out the non-talis-clad men at shacharis.
os-that's not a bad idea...in a shul without an iron-clad mechitza. The shul my parents daven in has a separate floor with a curtain. You can't see a THING.
And the shul I attend has 90-year-old men. I guess I gotta find another shul
Find another shul: one where a girl can talk to a boy without being seen as not modest, and where a boy who gets talked to (or talks to girls) doesn't think that his responsibility to behave properly ends when a girl talks to him...
One more note: Rav Moshe Feinstein writes in is Igros Moshe (somewhere: next time I see a Yad Moshe I will look it up) that a man wearing a wedding ring could be misconstrued as part of a dual ring ceremony, which is not the Jewish way of getting married.
Personally, I don't wear a ring, but people say that they can figure out that I am married very quickly: could be that I mention my wife around 30 seconds into any conversation...
a) in yeshivish circles, men usually don't have a beard until they get married.
b)the tallis thing doesn't work for yekkis and sfardim.
c)what's wrong with asking an acquaintance if someone's married?
d)do you really expect to meet a cute guy at a wedding with a mechitzah? if he came over to chat, would you feel it was appropriate?
assuming you know one of the people getting married, can't you ask the newlywed about the guest in question some time after the wedding?
e) as for the looks, if she sees a guy she finds attractive, why shouldn't she express interest? she's not saying she's marrying one right now, she's saying he's cute. sure guys do the same thing. if someone asked about you personally, based on the fact that he thought you were cute, would you really be mad about it? most people would take it as a compliment, as long as it was done in a proper manner.
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I am totally for the married guys to wear wedding rings. its is very hard for them to know whether the guys married or not. For the people who claimed it can be done, it is because they dont want to 'change', even if it is for the better.
Now this part of your post annoyed me, when you wrote " you might find quickly that they don't meet your standards". Apparently some one has a lot of standards. Did you learn that he isnt a CPA as you were hoping for. Or his suit wasnt really a valentino, but some knock off. Im ok with you sayin maybe you guys werent compatible, but to say 'standards', get real!
notsofrummie--
i believe that michelle meant priorities rather than standards in the way you mean. (correct me if i'm wrong) no one can call a valentino a priority. besides, part of a wife's job is changing her husband's wardrobe without his noticing once they are married :)
as for CPA, i've never heard anyone say they need to marry someone with a specific degree other than rabbi/doctor. and for those women who want a rabbi/doctor, kol hakavod to them for seeing (or not seeing) their husbands thru med school. if not for them, many an aspiring rabbi/doctor would still be single.
Another proof on why men should wear hats. The trend is that a chassan wears a darker colored felt black hat than a single guy. This hat usually lasts for a good 5-7 years and then they tend to buy another one like it. If all the guys would wear hats, it would be easy to distinguish the married from the not yet married.
Kaili - I dont know if you were serious, if not, I meant that Michelle has standards on how fancy and preppy he wants her guy to be.
Rescue- your rational doesnt make any sense. Are you sayin that the girl has to walk up 2 inches behind the guy to see if his hat hes wearing is a drop blacker than other single guy's hats. A ring is a much more obvious and noticable way for determining the difference, despite how 'unyeshivish' that sounds to you.
Making ortho kids wear rings, for the sake of differentiating the married ones, seems a long way to go considering that your still probably going to ask someone to introduce you...
Wow-you don't know me at all.
I couldn't care less if the guy found his suit on the floor at the SYMS bash. Anyone who knows me in person would know that. My clothing is from Gap's sale rack and Target for the most part. Trust me, Valentino means nothing to me.
When I say standards, I meant moral and hashkafic. So, yes, maybe "compatible" is the more accurate word.
Hey, I wear a wedding band!
My wife didn't give it to me at the ceremony, I got it in the Yichud Room, ( now who is getting jewelry, eh?).
I love my ring! If I leave the house without it, feels like something is missing.
Re: Yeshivish people don't wear rings, HAHa! Read this post:
http://jacobdajew.blogspot.com/2007/06/my-first-shabbos-in-lakewood.html
Shulchan Arukh 161:3 makes it quite clear that a man should take off HIS ring before washing for bread. Obviously he is allowed to be wearing it if the shulchan arukh reccommends he remove it.
I think it's a great idea. Lots of luck getting it accepted, though...
As for judging people by their looks... well, guys DO do the same for girls all too often.
P.S. It's also not "JUST" looks. Looks include how the person behaves, too. You can see a lot of personality just by casually observing.
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