Aaah, The Classic--(It's L-O-N-G)
There are oh, so many reasons I have avoided writing about this topic. But a comment from my last post reminded me of to what extremes some teachers or school programs have gone to convince us that Kollel is the only way. I am no one to discuss the argument of Hishtadlus, which leads to the Bechira discussion which I am by no means worthy of discussing either. That said, here's the rest:In high school, as you've also heard, I was told that a "boy in law school is not a Ben Torah," but I'd sure consider a guy who works all day and learns with all his heart for an hour or two before or after work more of a Ben Torah than "learning" guys who smoke and talk stocks all day while his wife shops, and Daddy pays the bills.
I've been told many a time that I must "know my audience." In this case, I think my school should know their audience, and admit the fact that most of the girls looking for learning guys altogether, and in my affluent school, are doing so simply because that's "the thing to do" and they can. These girls are not sacrificing for Torah. They still lead luxurious lives, still doing whatever they can to avoid thinking, and worrying about how to impress the couple next door.
On a Lakewood Shabbaton a few years ago (which turned me off more than it turned me on), there was a panel,--Oh, I wrote about this once--hear me out--and one panelist reminded us that just because your husband's learning, it doesn't mean you can't still wear Burberry. Thanks for letting me know. That was my plan, marry a learning guy, and buy my kids $150 dresses to outgrow in 3 months. Now that I know my dreams can come true, I'm running to Lakewood, you shallow, materialistic idiot.
Ok, that's me. But having that girl on the panel was knowing their audience. That's what these kids need to hear. But someone has to work to afford Burberry, so will you look down on them for their "lack of Bitachon?"
Speaking of the father's working, lemme get this straight. It's okay for this girl's father to work, right? But her husband--absolutely not. She won't marry someone who will work, or who is working, but how do you think you got your Ralph Lauren sweater, my dear? Daddy's workdays. Why is it assur to marry a working guy in 2006, whereas in 1976, there was no such idea. Even in 1996--there wasn't as much as a stigma in admitting you'd allow your husband to go to work.
Don't get me wrong, I respect many poeple in the kollel system--like the man I wrote about a while ago, who has more than 15 children and continues to learn in Kollel while his family is content and simple. That is extremely sincere and admirable. Certainly, there are situations where one has to go to work sooner than he'd like, because he needs to pay bills, but those men are never happy to leave Kollel, and continue to learn every free second they have. That, my friend, is a "learning guy."
Like in school, we heard stories of people who were going to be evicted, and the day before, a check for the precise amount was in the mailbox because they had lent it to someone 10 years ago and forgot about it. Similar stories that seem unrealistic, and not something anyone wants to try on for size. "Would you like to go parasailing without a paraschute, my friend? There's a one in a million chance you'll survive." Hey, I'm not saying working will guarantee a comfortable lifestyle, but that's the whole hishtadlus business.
So why, you ask, do I not look for a learning guy? (BTW, my criteria include that he learns often, and because he wants to, not because he has to) I think, now don't all attack me at once, that if I want to do things that don't go along with learning, it's hypocritical. I don't want to pretend to be someone I'm not.
Since I'm so mixed up in my Hashkafot, I don't know if I sound like more of a hypocrite or less of one compared to the shallow fakers. I daven, I say Tehillim, I try to stay connected spiritually, yet I openly watch TV, read trash like Seventeen and Us Weekly, and go to the movies. But I try hard to dress B'Tznius, but I know that my lifestyle doesn't comply with the true meaning of a learning family.
Thoughts?
posted by Michelle @ 5:19 PM
33 Comments:
You sound right on target, and will make some real guy very happy some day soon. I say, if you're shallow enough to want a guy who learns all day cause thats what everyone else wants. Then you'll get a guy who is shallow enough to want a girl that wants that lifestyle.
let shallow people marry shallow people
it is very difficult after having been ingrained with certain hashkafos to know what to believe after growing up and thinking about things and realizing they make no sense at all..
You want to change your hashkafos but they are very ingrained.. it is easier to change actions, such as starting to watch tv, or get a job or have more modern friends, etc.. than it is to change what you believe about x
"But a comment from my last post reminded me of to what extremes some teachers or school programs have gone to convince us that Kollel is the only way."
Oh, please say that it was me. ;) I feel like I've done a service when I get people to think about things.
Think about this - if the kollel guy who learns all day and is supported by daddy has ten kids and they all grow up to do what their father does - where does the money come from to support the ten grandkids? The system is economically untenable.
Furthermore, how well can a guy really "learn" about things if he's so divorced from reality? How can he form intelligent opinions if he doesn't know basic history or science or any extra-Talmudic studies? The 'Gedolim' are the case in point where they've done nothing but 'learn' their whole lives and then they say absurd things and pontificate about Indian hair and microscopic bugs in the water.
People should be interested in educating themselves, in the fullest sense of the word, not mindlessly 'learning' gemara which cannot give you an understanding even close to full comprehension of all that's out there.
There isn't any greater understanding in a "learning family." Just greater rates of conformity to what the "glorious leaders" consider the ideal Jewish lifestyle.
See, the moment you begin to seriously think for yourself that's the moment you'll be freed from the sociological compulsion to conform. You are an individual! Act like it.
It amazes me that you feel you have to defend the idea that a married man with children should support himself and family.
Why should a man be unhappy supporting his family. IT IS A MITZVA!
And even those who are living simply are sacrificing in terrible ways. Where in fact does their money come from? If not daddy, then perhaps the govt? How this is not theft I do not know. Those programs are in place for those who CANNOT make a living, not for those who CHOOSE NOT to make a living.
Everyone else needs at least 1 income -- these families need a half an income?
If the wife works full time the children suffer; this is not how it was ever intended, and is wrong. When will the JO discuss this cause of children on the fringe?
The dire poverty in Lakewood -- not to mention the extreme difficulty Lakewood/learning parents have marrying off their kids because of their own poverty -- is never mentioned in these shabbatons.
And oftentimes (though by no means always) those taking the school to Lakewood do not have a Lakewood lifestyle (are you listening Mrs. P?). This is grossly misleading, and probably contrary to parents' wishes for their children.
Just so I'm not accused of not answering my comments--I will, Bli Neder, IYH when I am awake and can think my responses through!! Thanks for really making me think, guys!!
A few years back I taught in the secular department of a far right wing Yeshiva high school. I tired to stay away from religious issues, especially as I knew my perspective would run contrary to the Hashkafah of the Yeshiva.
I have to admit, these guys were tenacious, and one day they did bait me into discussing the future of their chose profession, The Kollel system. I just focused on the economics of the issue and how the system is not tenable long term. One boy asked if I'd debate his Rebbe on the issue. I declined. It was not my place.
As expected, the next day the boys had spoken to their Rebbe who had armed them with the appropriate response to my ignorance. I walked in and one boy said, "Our Rebbe said the kollel system CANNOT fail. It is the Ratzon Hashem (Will of G-d) that it continue."
I responded, "I told you I have no interest in debating your Rebbe. But seeing that he has a direct line to the true Ratzon Hashem, I wonder if he will answer some other questions for me? In any event, ask him this, how many people were running around Europe in the 1930's saying it was the Ratzon Hashem that Jews continue to live in the Shtetls of Europe until the coming of the Moshiach?
Conversation and debated ended there.
Dag
Great conversation. Amazing how the simple idea of supporting one's own family is foreign to so many.
I do however feel that the pedulum is shifting rapidly back to sanity. Just ask anyone who works on shiduchim and you will hear how fewer and fewer boys and girls are interested in full time learning forever. It might just be economic reality setting in, but regardless, it's making a difference.
Otherwise, really enjoyed reading the post and the thoughful comments. I just wish these thoughts were more widespread.
Right on! Great post! But then again, my opinion doesn't matter because I am not a "Ben Toiyreh"
The fact that I make an honest living, and learn when I can, means nothing.
sigh. These people need to open up their eyes to the world!
concerning your daily activities doing dome spiritual stuff and then absorbing hollywood in your system this behavior will eventualy lead to a total collapse of your spirituality i know that too well
been there done that
I knew I shouldn't have pushed off responding. Well, I'll do my best.
Orthoprax-while it actually was notahottie that inspired this post, I'm sure that there have been others inspired by your wisdom.
Anon#1-so do you! :-)
r.--I see your point about doing something all the way or not, but I don't think that black and white logic works on this argument. Because what if they need help from the parents, and live a simple life? What if the guy learns part time? I mean, the end of my post probably sounds like I feel "all or nothing" but this just highlights my confusion at the situation.
rafi g-excellent point. Also keep in mind that it's easier to become less frum than to become more frum.
Almost Frei--we must run different circles. Or I have yet to see it. Maybe people have finally started to be honest with themselves and realize that a cool guy macher doesn't have to learn. Just thinking of some i know makes me shudder.
Lakevent-don't you know that seeing the world, along with doin anything mildly secular, is assur??
YY-Thanks for the warning. I also think that there's a difference between men and women in this area, and that it depends how important your spirituality is to you. Same for Hollywood.
I bet you didn't go to a public college, as well.
Lakewoodyid-Maybe a better idea would be to not emphasize so much that everyone should be learning forever. Only a small few are cut out for learning long haul. Just a thought. I don't think your evaluation of shidduch problems is very accurate.
Michelle, I commend you for realizing where you are holding in life. Sometimes it is a bracha not to get engaged right when you come home from seminary because you get a chance to settle into earth first and come to a conclusion. I just hope you do more davining then TV watching. Otherwise, your conclusion may not land where you wanted it to. These things are dangerous for girls too, not just guys. Don't be that silly. Be careful. Adult life comes with adult responsibilities for woman too. If you think it is supporting your family for a man then maybe it is the woman who should be an aura of ruchnius in the home??? Hatzlacha Rabah in all your endeavors. May you find the right one at the right time and be zoche together to build a Bayis Ne'eman Biyisrael.
Michelle,
Two criticisms, lulei demistafina, on an otherwise excellent post:
1. "Why is it assur to marry a working guy in 2006, whereas in 1976, there was no such idea." This is not a valid argument. We do have to change with the times, and if it is possible for someone to sit and learn today, because he has the financial support that his father never did, he has that responsibility. Besides, Lakewood was open for business long before 1976; it just wasn't as popular.
2. "BTW, my criteria include that he learns often, and because he wants to, not because he has to." All men have to learn. It's a chiyuv. I would hope that your husband, will keep his sedorim whether or not he feels like it on any given evening.
The push for the girls to marry into the kollel system mirrors the push for the boys to enter the kollel system. This push has the positive effect of reminding ALL boys and girls of how important learning is, so that girls still want a guy who learns (as you clearly do) and guys understand they have the obligation to maintain sedorim even if they become a lawyer, CPA or auto mechanic. This was not really the case in 1976. People who were not professional learners, rabbis or teachers, for the most part, dismissed Torah study as "not my thing." Fortunately, that happens less and less today.
The negative side of this push is twofold. One, it's untrue. The Torah never required the majority, let alone all, of Bnei Yisrael to sit and learn (though it would be nice). To state that a "boy in law school is not a Ben Torah" is false and ignorant of what it means to be a Ben Torah.
The second problem is what I call the "Perfectionist Plunge." What happens to those who believe their teachers but can't live up to the standard? They spend their whole lives riddled with guilt. Or they follow the pack and don't reach the Promised Land that they envisioned.
I am not convinced that the fallout from the negative side outweighs the buildup from the positive side. I'm, lulei demistafina, unsure on that one.
CJ ... Boruch MeChayei Mesim.. Talk about a ghost from the past.. How have you been. What have you been up to the past six months..
It is a well known fact that he Kollel phenomenon has evolved over the last twenty years from something nice to do for a few years into something that must be done for many years. Mmost people are not cut out for it. Either you burn out or, if you are normal, you reach a point where you want to do something with all of the knowledge you have attained. Many years ago someone once said there are two kinds of baalei baatim, those who go to daf yomi and those who can give it, his goal was to be the latter. Ask anyone who learnt in Lakewood when Reb Ahar
It is a well known fact that the Kollel phenomenon has evolved over the last twenty years from something nice to do for a few years into something that must be done for many years. Mmost people are not cut out for it. Either you burn out or, if you are normal, you reach a point where you want to do something with all of the knowledge you have attained. Many years ago someone once said there are two kinds of baalei baatim, those who go to daf yomi and those who can give it, his goal was to be the latter. Ask anyone who learnt in Lakewood when Reb Aharon was there and they will tell you 5 years wa long time to be in Kollel and that was mostly for the guys who would go on to be Rabbonim/roshei yeshiva the guys who went to work left (because he encouraged them to) after two or three years. and believe me they were still learning well at the time.
PS. please delete the above post this is the complete version
RNF-Amen, thank you. And to others who benched me, Amen, and thank you.
CJ-You broach the subject of whether teachers should speak of their imperfect pasts, and the banned "Making of a Gadol"--shedding a real light on great people.
Sometimes, as is the problem with R's argument, black and white is not a way to go. You can't do all or nothing. You need to have some a little bit of both, but that's where it gets complicated.
That's probably why they push us all to marry full-time learners. They don't trust that once we do something small that is not on that "side" they feel we'll get too involved.
Limey-They finally go out to work, but how honest are they when they go to work? They got used to living a luxurious lifestyle, and are willing to do a lot to keep it up.
The ones who are independent all along (or receive minimal amounts of monthly allowance from parents) are upset to go out to work, do their best to make an honest parnassah, and learn when they have a chance.
WAKE UP!!! Just like in your other post about the story of the frum laywer pretending to be a doctor to molest an employee, your high school teachers tell you STUPID made-up stories to brainwash you. Your teachers might even believe them because they heard them from their teachers. But the stories are ridiculous if you think about them for more than a minute.
I remember hearing about how a frum girl went to Brooklyn College and end up marrying a non-Jew. That was supposed to scare us into going to Touro or not going to college at all.
Idiots!
Or am I the idiot for sending my daughters to the same school I went to?
"The 'Gedolim' are the case in point where they've done nothing but 'learn' their whole lives and then they say absurd things and pontificate about Indian hair and microscopic bugs in the water."--Orthoprax
Three problems, lulei demistafina, with this statement.
One, it belittles Gedolim as uninformed about the world at large, and therefore ill-suited to guide the Klal. This may be true of certain members of the Brooklyn rabbinate, but not true of the actual Gedolim who, for the most part, guide public policy for our holy nation.
Two, it belittles Torah study as something outside the realm of the real world. The certitude with which this claim is made is always inversely proportional to the claimant's knowledge of Torah and experience in studying Torah. Anyone who has spent years studying Talmud, Mishnah, Mishlei, Tehillim, the Siddur, not to mention the Chumash, has an unparalleled wealth of knowledge about how the planet works, and immeasurable insight into human nature and behavior. As my rebbe once taught, "Life is Gemara and Gemara is life."
Three, it belittles Halachah. Whether it's about bugs or hair is irrelavent. You might as well mock Shabbos (Can't watch TV on a day of rest?!), Kashrus (How does banning "a kid in it's mother's milk" equate to cheeseburgers?!), or Tefillin (God actually wants you to wrap straps around your head and arm?!). Nothing in Halachah is sacred to the nonbeliever.
At the end of the day, you either believe or you don't. Orthoprax doesn't.
I do.
Cloo,
"One, it belittles Gedolim as uninformed about the world at large, and therefore ill-suited to guide the Klal."
That was the basic intention. They are unfit.
"This may be true of certain members of the Brooklyn rabbinate, but not true of the actual Gedolim who, for the most part, guide public policy for our holy nation."
Do you have actual names? Who are these mysterious 'actual' Gedolim?
"Two, it belittles Torah study as something outside the realm of the real world."
Depends what kind of Torah study we're talking about. Learning endless Halachic details does not prepare one for the real world.
"The certitude with which this claim is made is always inversely proportional to the claimant's knowledge of Torah and experience in studying Torah. Anyone who has spent years studying Talmud, Mishnah, Mishlei, Tehillim, the Siddur, not to mention the Chumash, has an unparalleled wealth of knowledge about how the planet works, and immeasurable insight into human nature and behavior."
Sounds like a backhanded attempt at an ad hominem, nicely done. Again, my case in point is the very Gedolim who say silly things even with all the wealth of knowledge you believe they possess.
Learning Torah does not qualify you to give medical advice or really give you any sort of valuable education in terms of understanding how the world works. Gedolim in Torah are typically ketanim in science.
"Three, it belittles Halachah. Whether it's about bugs or hair is irrelavent."
See, the current place ritual Halacha occupies in the yeshivish/kollel world magnifies its importance to an absurd degree. It's more important than moral concerns or real sociological problems in the society. That's why sexual abusers are tolerated, drug use by children is ignored and cheating on taxes is shamelessly promoted. When bugs in the water are more important than geneivah and sexual abuse then you know that your priorities are in the wrong place.
"Nothing in Halachah is sacred to the nonbeliever."
Nothing that is silly, correct. I do not promote Halachic decisions that raise up Jewish life for ridicule. Going nuts over possible micro-insects in the water adds nothing to Jewish life. I believe in making a good faith effort, but the extremes that are promoted are absurd.
"At the end of the day, you either believe or you don't. Orthoprax doesn't."
At the beginning of the day you should have realized that black and white views of the world are usually wrong. We're all different shades of grey.
Although, I sense Ortho-prax has a distinct anti-Orthodox, anti-Yeshiva bias. She still males some very valid points.
In Lakewood, if a lady wears a Snood that shows the front of her hair Heaven forbid, or slits in a skirt or dark nail polish a big stink is made about it in the poster and general discussion.
But if this selfsame lady steals someone else's cleaning lady, no-one says anything about it, its just the cost of doing business. And if a lady has an affair (I AM NOT SAYING THIS HAPPENS OFTEN, BUT IT DOES OCCASIONALLY) it is always brushed under the carpet.
Semgirl---you ever think it's what those things are paired with?
I wear brown nail polish in the winter. I wear slits. I plan to show some hair in the front of my snood IY"H, but I am always dressed Aidel and fine.
I try hard to cover my elbows knees and collarbone, don't wear tight clothing, and am dressed simply as not to attract attention. Part of what makes me a Hashkafic freak of nature.
My point is that the things you described are USUALLY combined with a very ho-ish outift
Ladies have affairs? In the frum community? Are you for real?
Semgirl,
"Although, I sense Ortho-prax has a distinct anti-Orthodox, anti-Yeshiva bias. She still males some very valid points."
*amused*
Though I don't think I'm biased (meaning prejudiced - my views are usually post-judiced - or at least I try for them to be), what makes you think I'm of the female persuasion?
Anon--yes, unfortunately. Harsh reality.
It's good you are aware of the total picture. You are on the ball.
Anon--yes, unfortunately. Harsh reality.
I must have the most boring life in the entire frum world. It sucks to follow the rules.
All I do when someone starts telling me about Kollel:
I point him in the direction of the Or Hachaim in parshas Naso (2 weeks ago).
Look at his concise and eye opening explanation behind the name "Eliav ben Chalon" (the nasi of shevet Zevulun).
Good luck!
I believe that the current (actually it's been a while) push to have all guys learning fulltime for years on end is untenable. The yeshivas (who encourage it) and the parents aren't doing these guys any favors. You need to prepare your children to be able to support themselves and stand on their own 2 feet. What happens if chas v'shalom something happens and the parents are no longer able to support them? It's a very competitive job market out there, with highly skilled and educated people vying for jobs. It's all very well and good to have emunah, but we are not supposed to rely on miracles.
mata hari--yes, but you broach the topics of Bechira and Hishtadlus, which are all too complicated. So I don't think there really is ONE conclusive answer to this whole dilemma.
yes michelle, i agree...but the point is that if there is no one conclusive (i.e. cookie cutter) answer, then people have to be able to think independently and make individual choices and not go along with the pack like lemmings (am i mixing too many metaphors?)
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